The Book of Mormon vs Mormonism

Richard Packham ^ | Revised December, 2008 | Richard Packham

[SENTINEL]

Thanks, I’ve missed you all.

I had to take a break.

[Colofornian]

From the chart: Jesus and God the Father are the same. (Mosiah 3:8, 15:1-5, Ether 4:7, 12)

Other Book of Mormon verses which say that Jesus is God:
2 Nephi 10:3
2 Nephi 11:7
2 Nephi 31:21 (says He is the eternal God)
2 Nephi 26:12
Ether 3:17-18

Also, Alma 18:28 says that the Holy Ghost is God.

If the Father is God, and Jesus is God, and the Holy Ghost is God -- all as the Book of Mormon says -- then what does that tell us?

What's interesting is that between 1830 and almost mid-way through 1833, Joseph Smith largely stuck with trinitarian beliefs that he inserted into the...
...1830 Book of Mormon,
...1833 Book of Commandments
...and 1835 Doctrine & Covenants
-- although he was also a "modalist" at the time (the belief that the same divine personality reveals himself in 3 venues or "modes").

(I strongly encourage Lds "lurkers" to go back & study their own 1830-1833 "roots" as far as who God is):
Doctrine & Covenants:
As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and Son; which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. (D&C 20:27-28, 1830)
And the Father and I are one. I am in the Father and the Father in me... (D&C 50:43...1831...Smith copied this from John 10; John 17)
And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one (D&C 93:3, 1833)
...even one in me [Jesus] as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one (D&C 35:2, 1831)

Book of Commandments, 1833 (the original D&C):
Lectures of Faith, Lecture 5, v. 2: And he [Jesus] being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father--possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power [singular] over all things: by whom all things were created and made; and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power and fullness: Filling all in all--the Son being filled with the fulness of the Mind, glory and power, or, in other words, the Spirit, glory and power of the Father--posessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father--a Mediator for man--being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father... [Note: This was removed from the 1835 D&C...Why?]

Book of Mormon:
Intro: Testimony of Three Witnesses: And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which IS [not ARE] one God.
And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which IS [not ARE] one God. (2 Nephi 31:21)
...the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. (3 Nephi 11:27,36)
...every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which IS [not ARE] one eternal God... (Alma 11:44)
...given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7: Please note: the original 1830 Book of Mormon had the word "is" prior to one God...BoM editors then changed it to "are"...a "shaking-the-head" kind of thought given that they left other "testimony" untouched -- such as the 3 witnesses -- along with 2 Nephi 31:21 and Alma 11:44)
...there is a true and living God...Is there more than one God? And he answered, No (Alma 11:27-29)
...Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit...and all this, that this man might know that he was God... (Ether 3:17-18)

[reaganaut]

I understand, I’ve been there too.

[Colofornian]

Thanks, I’ve missed you all.

Indeed Sentinel. We're glad you stopped back BY! (And that's By without the "U" :) )

A holy hug extended your way.

[Colofornian]

Our God seemingly likes to work in sevens...so let me summarize from another angle what I posed in these 7 posts (#15, #18, #19, #20, #24, #39, & #42):

What has The Book of Mormon presented to potential proselytized converts? While indeed the Book of Mormon has MANY problems from a theological angle -- not too much addressed on this thread (nevermind all the actual historical, sociological, geographical & archaeological issues it has), the reality is...
...that a potential convert (outsider) to the faith could review the Book of Mormon...
...and come away thinking, "Hey, this matches up to Christianity!"
* 2 destinations post hell;
* only one God;
* Jesus is God (not simply Jesus is a god);
* God is a spirit;
* salvation only attained in THIS life;
* eternal punishment as eternal as the life of the soul;
* Jesus is to be worshipped and prayed to DIRECTLY;
* God doesn't change & never has;
* God isn't a glorified man;
* Etc.

But in this way the Book of Mormon serves only to be a "come on" to the unsuspecting. All of this is like the "lead come-on ad" of a used-car salesman...to get you in the door. The hook. They are drawn in by Lds missionaries who don't show them what's in the Doctrine & Covenants or Pearl of Great Price. No, for that would unveil their eyes as to the reality of what Mormons really believe:
* There are many gods;
* you can become one of them;
* God the Father is a glorified man;
* He has a body of flesh & bones;
* salvation? Oh, we've got an after life prison-release system;
* 3 degrees of glory;
* Hell? Oh, you're only "damned up" temporarily -- don't worry, our genealogists & proxy ritualists will find a way to "get you out."

For all that is made out about the "integrity" of Mormons, this shoots that very idea straight in the heart!
It's not "integrity" to "baitswitch" people.
It's not "integrity" to convey to outsiders that Mormons believe one thing, when either that was a long time ago or the "prophet"'s revealed yet another take on the subject.
So shame on you Lds Missionaries.
Shame on your former Lds missionaries.
Like the soldiers in Germany who claimed, "we only did what we were told to do" is no excuse. Culpability extends to all around.

But let me also give you the Good News of Jesus Christ: Jesus knows how much so many of you Mormons have been hoodwinked. Deceived. Lied to by your leaders; by your general authorities.

I mean, here they tell you to your face not to pray to Jesus directly. Yet the supposed Nephite disciples did it repeatedly in just one chapter (3 Nephi 19!). Here, an apostle told BYU students NOT to directly worship the Holy Ghost, or Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus is repeatedly worshiped in the Book of Mormon (see also Holy Ghost worshiped in Mormon 7:7).

And here, Lds haven't been told about all the changes in the D&C & Book of Mormon (see the textual changes since the 1830 version just in 1 Nephi 11:18, 21; 1 Nephi 13:40; Mosiah 21:28; 1 Nephi 20:1; Alma 46:19; Alma 29:4; Alma 37:21, 24; Mormon 7:7 alone!!!)

And just think of all the questions you've had about Book of Mormon passages -- that when you brought them to your leaders -- they just glossed right over them. Perhaps they encouraged you to simply "pray about it."

Well, you know what, if you have indeed prayed about these passages, then this thread is one of the answers to that prayer. This thread is meant to give you hope. Too many Mormons have left Mormonism for atheism and agnosticism.

It's time to "count the cost" of being a disciple for Jesus Christ. It's time to come forward out of the Mormon closet and into the broader world. There's a lurker here to whom I am speaking. Jesus knows who you are. (I don't). But the time has come.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." -- Jesus, Luke 14:26

"All men will hate you because of me." -- Jesus, Luke 21:17

27"ALL THINGS have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." -- Jesus, Matthew 11:27-30

[LeGrande]

Our God seemingly likes to work in sevens...

That is interesting on so many different levels.

"Our God" as opposed to the Jewish God or the Moslem God or the Mormon God or the Catholic God. Tribalism on display here folks.

"likes to work in sevens" superstition, numerology, anthropomorphizing God, etc. take your pick : )

Freud might have been on to something.

[Colofornian]

"Our God" as opposed to the Jewish God or the Moslem God or the Mormon God or the Catholic God. Tribalism on display here folks.

Surely, LeGrande, you've encountered the Biblical phrase, "The Lord, our God" somewhere in your life? (Hint: It's replete in Scripture from Deut to the rest of the Bible?...Now you're not chastising me for failing to put "The Lord" in front of the "our God" phrasing, are you???)

...as opposed to the Jewish God

Well, L, as I just mentioned to the Jews, he was "our God" too "The Lord, our God, is one"...you're not sending an e-mail to all the Jewish synagogues of the world asking them if they are displaying "tribalism" are you?

Yes? (Consistent?)
No? (Inconsistent then?)

...anthropomorphizing God,

No, the Lord chose the mathematical reality of 7-day weeks (not me).
The Lord chose the mathematical reality of a 7-day Sabbath rest (not me).
Jesus Christ talked about forgiving people 7 times 70 (not me)
(I could go on)
The bottom line here is that numbers weren't created by your anthropos sourcing, were they? (I mean what? You think man created mathematical realities, or do you think man discovered mathematical realities???...which is it, Mr. LeGrande? Do mathematical realities transcend man, LeGrande, or were they invented by man?)

[Graybeard58]

The way some people speak of the Church makes it out to be an instrument of the devil himself. I have found the opposite to be true.

Jesus said, He was the way the truth and the life, no man may see the Father except by Him. Yet I have seen quotes from your own literature that we need an OK from Joseph Smith to get to Heaven.

Any religion that teaches this, is indeed, "of the devil himself".

I don't get involved too much usually, there are many people who post that are much more learned than I am on the subject of Mormonism, not one of them hates you, or is a "bigot", they want to see you see the light and be converted to Christianity. Jesus is truly the only way, not Joseph Smith.

I have seen people converted because of what they have learned on these threads and I praise God for it. My prayers are with you as are many others.

[Elsie]

 

The problem we're dealing with here is that Mormons place themselves on par with Jesus re: godhood & saviorhood, calling themselves "literal...saviors")

 

Problem?

 

Why do you think that's a PROBLEM?

 

Why; if it weren't for US, those lost souls would get no second chance to accept Jesus as their Savior!!!

 

^{Or a third, fourth or fifth chance if they baptized again and again in different Temples.)}

[greyfoxx39]

Now, Normandy, I'm going to ask you a direct Q...(will I get a response?): Which church is the church of the Lamb and which church is the church of the devil?

....crickets....

[Elsie]

I don’t see nuttin’ but a cigar.

[LeGrande]

I don’t see nuttin’ but a cigar.

Your thought process is very interesting too Elsie. : )

[Colofornian]

Jesus said, He was the way the truth and the life, no man may see the Father except by Him. Yet I have seen quotes from your own literature that we need an OK from Joseph Smith to get to Heaven. Any religion that teaches this, is indeed, "of the devil himself".

And aside from the quotes re: how we need Joseph Smith's consent to enter into some degree of salvation, we even have one of the worst forms of idolatry coming from the lips of the cousin of Mitt Romney's father, Marion G. Romney. Marion G. Romney was one of the top 3 members of the Lds church in the 1960s -- part of The First Presidency.

In stark contrast to John 14:6, which Graybeard58 cited, Marion Romney said: "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119)

I'm sorry, Normandy, but any that sets it self up as the "replacement" for Jesus Christ as "the way, the truth, and the life" is setting itself up for the biggest fall possible! Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand!

[LeGrande]

Well, L, as I just mentioned to the Jews, he was "our God" too

You agree that the Jews and you believe in the same God? How about the Catholics? The Mormons? The Moslems? If you think they believe in other Gods, can you explain why? I am especially interested in the differentiation between the Catholic God and the Jewish God.

Well, L, as I just mentioned to the Jews, he was "our God" too "The Lord, our God, is one"...you're not sending an e-mail to all the Jewish synagogues of the world asking them if they are displaying "tribalism" are you?

Now that you mention it, Judaism is almost the definition of Tribalism. They are God's chosen people aren't they? Do you feel left out knowing that your God loves them more?

(I mean what? You think man created mathematical realities, or do you think man discovered mathematical realities???...which is it, Mr. LeGrande? Do mathematical realities transcend man, LeGrande, or were they invented by man?)

Man created math, the same as he created God and religion, and for the same reason, to understand the world and universe.

[Colofornian]

You agree that the Jews and you believe in the same God?

Yes, we both worship the God of Isaac, Jacob and Abraham. (Certainly, if you know the Old Testament, God was always disciplining the Israelites for everything from idolatry to...you name it...so certainly, not every Jewish person worships the God of Isaac, Jacob & Abraham. Jesus referenced the Pharisees in John 8, for example, of being of their father, the devil. So Jesus didn't take kindly to religious legalists).

How about the Catholics?

Yes, same God...same caveat as one of the Jews & Protestants, etc. IOW, can't vouch for every Catholic, Protestant or Jew out there...but generally, yes.

Mormons & Muslims?

Well, I get back to you on a post on that. But "No, I don't worship a glorified man who was never divine to begin with." And, "No, I don't worship any deity who was simply one member among many other gods as part of a divine 'council of gods.'"

[LeGrande]

You agree that the Jews and you believe in the same God?

Yes, we both worship the God of Isaac, Jacob and Abraham.

Jews don't believe that Jesus was the God of the Torah do they? Of course not. I also think that they had a penalty for people who claim that they do. Death. In fact, isn't that why they killed Jesus?

So no you can't believe in the same God the Jews do can you? And if you aren't a Catholic you can't believe in their God either. The same for any of the different religions. Do you understand or is this too confusing?

[Normandy]

I believe with all my heart that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that no man cometh unto the Father but by him.

I’ve never been taught in the LDS faith anything contrary to that.

I accept him, and him alone, as my Savior and Redeemer.

[Godzilla]

And what do you have to do to warrant that salvation Norman?

[Normandy]

Well we have no hope of salvation without Christ so we have to accept him as our Savior realizing that of ourselves we are sinners and need his mercy. We need acknowledge the great sacrifice he made for us.

Peter said, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Godzilla]

Just who is Jesus norman? Define who he is.

Define “accept him as our Savior”

Define ‘salvation’ as you have used it.

Define mercy and is it free

Thanks.