Posted on 01/13/2010 10:43:08 AM PST by NYer
I had to Google them and found the following:
They are a traditional “Roman Rite” church under the name “Society of St. Pius V.
Is that what you mean? If so, what does this mean? ;)
I guess then that Jews are victims of "lunacy" for praying towards Jerusalem, and eastern and oriental chr*stians practice "lunacy" by always facing east.
Thanks for letting us know how you feel about this.
Ah, that’s even further into the traditional camp. That Society split off from the SSPX. They are sympathetic, though not openly supportive of the idea that there hasn’t been a legitimate pope since the death of Pius XII in 1958. They use an earlier edition of the Roman Missal which contains the prayers used during Mass.
Interesting...
My sister was told that the Vatican doesn’t recognize her marriage though she was married in a Catholic church.
It’s been a great education if nothing else and the church was beautiful. Very peaceful too, we had to wisper. ;)
The Catholic Church does not mandate personal prayer facing any particular direction. However, the Mass is on an entirely different theological and spiritual level. Furthermore, Islam has copied and corrupted a number of authentic spiritual practices which have sound theological foundations. Islam is wrong about lots of things but there is an element of sense in this one.
Symbolism is an important part of most religions and the Christian religion is no exception. Moreover, the construction of churches facing east has a long spiritual history beginning in the fourth century, if not earlier. Hard for Americans wedded to the Puritan minimalist idea of Church theology to grasp but architects designed and built with the conscious purpose of rendering in stone the theology of the relationship between Christ and His Church. The church was "oriented", i.e. its chancel pointed to the East to greet the coming of the "Sun of Justice", the "Orient from on high", The practice lasted on throughout the Middle Ages. From this indication of the points of the compass it followed that the deacon in reading the Gospel turned himself sideways so as to proclaim the glad tidings to the barbarous races of the north. The great porch at the western end, on the other hand, faced the setting sun and led men's thoughts to the close of life. With regard to the door itself there was frequently some significant scheme of decoration which emphasized the idea that the door is Christ (John 10:7)and so on.
Note that this not superstition in which we attach some magical powers to an altar facing in a certain direction. Rather, it is symbolism, which reminds us and gives form to real theological principles.
Well explained - you’ve educated me. Thanks.
Colonel, USAFR
And so we do what is necessary .... we pray!
>>I guess then that Jews are victims of “lunacy” for praying towards Jerusalem, and eastern and oriental chr*stians practice “lunacy” by always facing east.
Thanks for letting us know how you feel about this.<<
I’ll take it a step further: The Jewish leadership in Jesus’ time was VERY similar to the muslims today.
e.g. John 8
So yes, I believe just as you suggest.
As a friend who converted to Catholicism once told me, the reason for all those pictures in stained glass is to tell the stories in the bible to people who cannot read latin.
Now, it is there as “tradition”.
When I think of tradition, this comes to mind:
I respect, on it’s own, NOTHING done by other men since Jesus life. It must be supported by scripture. After all, after I die, nobody is going to stand next to me before God and say, oh, he did that because a few centuries before him we started doing it. Unlike wine, the works of man, outside of the Lord’s will, do not improve with age.
“Anyone know what’s the story behind the Catholic split in terms of traditional Latin mass, head coverings, etc. vs. today’s more progressive mass? I was told the sect was actually excommunicated.”
SSPX was excommunicated for appointing priests without the consent of the vatican. Since then they’ve agreed that the Pope has primacy, they’ve been drawn back and there’s currently negotiations to restore their positions.
“As a friend who converted to Catholicism once told me, the reason for all those pictures in stained glass is to tell the stories in the bible to people who cannot read latin.”
Tell your friend he’s mistaken. It’s for the edification of all.
Maybe I was being too brief. It was my take on what he said.
And I was so hoping that the marriage had not taken place in an SSPX Chapel. The good news is that the Vatican is working with the SSPX to bring them back into full communion. As to the separation, the short explanation is that this Catholic group chose not to recognize the changes that resulted from Vatican Council II which took place in the 60's. Essentially, the Catholic Church' locked in' their (traditional Latin) liturgical worship for 500 years. At VCII, the Council, it was decided to 'open up' the liturgy and translate it into the vernacular so that those attending mass could comprehend and follow along. A group of Catholics chose not to go along and began ordaining their own bishops ... a big 'NO'.
Pope JPII restored the traditional Latin Mass but many bishops chose not to allow its celebration in their respective dioceses. Pope Benedict XVI took the next step and freely opened the liturgy for celebration by any priest who chooses to do so, thus bypassing the bishops. Last year, Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication from the SSPX and is now working to bring them back into the fold. That is the most simplistic explanation I could come up with but it is still lacking in detail.
It’s been a great education if nothing else and the church was beautiful. Very peaceful too, we had to wisper. ;)
The peace you experienced is the 'peace' of Jesus Christ. (John 14:27) The ultimate form of worship is in a Catholic Church where Christ is truly present, body, soul and divinity, in the Holy Eucharist. I have great admiration for Baptist worship because it focuses on the Bible. Catholics, for whatever reason, are reluctant to pick up a Bible and actually read it. Those Catholics who attend weekly Mass will hear the entire Bible read to them at Mass, over the span of 3 years. The priest, as you have already seen, does not lecture on it but use the scripture in his homily to tie it into our personal lives.
God bless your father for his stamina! He must have been scandalized by this service. One of my co-workers recently had a similar experience but in the reverse. Her cousin married a Baptist and converted to his faith.
The distinction to be made is "liturgical" east or west. In the case of priests saying mass in the traditional manner facing "liturgical" east (the priest is "oriented") he is already facing the crucifix.
On the other hand, when the priest says mass facing "liturgical" west or "versus poplum" (toward the people) in the post-Vatican II manner, the crucifix is behind him.
By instructing the priests to face a small crucifix on the altar at these masses the focus is restored . . . on Christ.
Good for them. They still took their G-d-given task of dealing with blasphemers seriously back then instead of crusading for "tolerance and pluralism." I wish more Jews today were like moslems in that way.
e.g. John 8
Why would I do that? Do you want me to consult the "book of mormon," the "holy qur'an," or the Sikh "holy book" as well?
So yes, I believe just as you suggest.
Don't forget about the ancient chr*stian churches who pray towards the east. They're crazy too.
You wrote:
“My sister was told that the Vatican doesn’t recognize her marriage though she was married in a Catholic church.”
If it was SSPV, then it was not a Catholic Church. It may have been at one time, but not now.
I’ll take this opportunity to say “Shazaam!!” we are on the same side of a religious debate for once!!
>>Don’t forget about the ancient chr*stian churches who pray towards the east. <<
Traditions of men die hard. The Haitian Christians still have a hard time shaking of Voodoo customs.
It helps to realize that a church is not just a building WHERE we worship, but a building WITH WHICH we worship.
Not even the commitment of His life and teachings to writing?
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