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To: Gamecock
Ok, I'll bite. :)

Surprise, surprise, I actually agree with a not insignificant part of this. Where the author really slips is here:

for the bible speaks of many false prophets and false doctrines arising up in the midst of the Church, and even indicates that entire churches may become apostate (1 Tim. 4:1-4; 2 Tim. 3:13-17; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Rev. 2:5; 13:11)

Whoa there.....hold on. It speaks of entire churches...churchES becoming apostate, where does it ever speak of the Church *as a whole* becoming apostate? There's the logical sleight-of-hand that the authors are making.

We have plenty of examples of when this see or that see succumbed to heresy. Almost always temporarily. But the Reformation theology requires us to believe something much much more than that--it requires us to believe that the *entire* Church--and, indeed, all the churches of all the sees from Antioch to Rome--spun off into heresy. Not just the Pope. Not just the Cardinals. Everyone. There isn't ONE of the ancient Churches, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Orientals, whom Reformed Christians can look to and say....yes...those guys kept the faith entire., is there?

I find the authors' argument singularly unconvincing. No book can be greater than its author--and the Bible cannot be greater than the Church that wrote it. To accept the authority of the former is logically to accept the authority of the latter. It's like saying we should obey the laws of Congress but not admit that Congress has the right to make laws.

3 posted on 01/07/2010 3:20:03 AM PST by Claud
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To: Claud
There isn't ONE of the ancient Churches, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Orientals, whom Reformed Christians can look to and say....yes...those guys kept the faith entire., is there?

That's what "Reformed" means. There would be no need for a return to the original pattern laid out in Scripture if it had been kept in the first place. Thankfully, people in many places can now read about and try to keep that pattern without being tortured or burned at the stake.

5 posted on 01/07/2010 4:01:40 AM PST by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: Claud
“I find the authors’ argument singularly unconvincing. No book can be greater than its author—and the Bible cannot be greater than the Church that wrote it”

The Bibles author is God as attested to by Christ himself

6 posted on 01/07/2010 4:13:25 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Claud; Gamecock; xzins
No book can be greater than its author--and the Bible cannot be greater than the Church that wrote it.

You confuse the scribe and the librarian with the author.

The author is God himself.

The Teacher is the Holy Spirit.

The Church is the body of believers in Christ.

7 posted on 01/07/2010 6:10:03 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Claud; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings; the_conscience; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Quix; Alex Murphy; ...
There isn't ONE of the ancient Churches, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Orientals, whom Reformed Christians can look to and say....yes...those guys kept the faith entire., is there?

No man nor visible church can "keep the faith entire." All men sin, even priests and popes and every member of every congregation. Nobody gets it all right.

So we search for the church which most closely adheres to the written word of God handed down for centuries and preserved by God for His glory.

And that's where Rome fails because Rome teaches and practices so much that is antithetical to the truth found in Scripture. It's just that simple.

Rome errs in believing priests are "another Christ." Rome errs when it encourages men to pray to dead people who may or may not be now in heaven. Rome errs when it confers near-divinity to Mary by calling her a "mediatrix" and "co-redeemer." Rome errs when it says good works are required to earn salvation. Rome errs when it says its bishop of Rome is head of the church and speaks infallibly on matters of faith. Rome errs when it says its magisterium is likewise infallible and is the only arbiter of the Scriptures which are subject to that group of men. Rome errs when it believes baptism regenerates. Rome errs when it says the Lord's Supper is a re-sacrifice of Christ. And Rome errs when it confuses justification with sanctification, thereby telling men their own piety is their ticket to paradise when the ONLY thing that saves anyone is Christ's work on the cross freely and mercifully imputed to the believer who was named by God from before the foundation of the world.

Thus the necessity of the Reformation -- to right the listing church of Jesus Christ on earth.

I'm Presbyterian. I believe church structure and accountability and governance are beneficial to the earthly institution of God's people. But every speck of that structure and governing is subject to the word of God. Or else it is false.

No doubt there are true Christians in the Roman Catholic church who love Christ beyond measure, but that will not be because of Rome's teaching, but in spite of it.

8 posted on 01/07/2010 9:52:36 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Claud; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings; the_conscience; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Quix; Alex Murphy; ...
There isn't ONE of the ancient Churches, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Orientals, whom Reformed Christians can look to and say....yes...those guys kept the faith entire., is there?

No man nor visible church can "keep the faith entire." All men sin, even priests and popes and every member of every congregation. Nobody gets it all right.

So we search for the church which most closely adheres to the written word of God handed down for centuries and preserved by God for His glory.

And that's where Rome fails because Rome teaches and practices so much that is antithetical to the truth found in Scripture. It's just that simple.

Rome errs in believing priests are "another Christ." Rome errs when it encourages men to pray to dead people who may or may not be now in heaven. Rome errs when it confers near-divinity to Mary by calling her a "mediatrix" and "co-redeemer." Rome errs when it says good works are required to earn salvation. Rome errs when it says its bishop of Rome is head of the church and speaks infallibly on matters of faith. Rome errs when it says its magisterium is likewise infallible and is the only arbiter of the Scriptures which are subject to that group of men. Rome errs when it believes baptism regenerates. Rome errs when it says the Lord's Supper is a re-sacrifice of Christ. And Rome errs when it confuses justification with sanctification, thereby telling men their own piety is their ticket to paradise when the ONLY thing that saves anyone is Christ's work on the cross freely and mercifully imputed to the believer who was named by God from before the foundation of the world.

Thus the necessity of the Reformation -- to right the listing church of Jesus Christ on earth.

I'm Presbyterian. I believe church structure and accountability and governance are beneficial to the earthly institution of God's people. But every speck of that structure and governing is subject to the word of God. Or else it is false.

No doubt there are true Christians in the Roman Catholic church who love Christ beyond measure, but that will not be because of Rome's teaching, but in spite of it.

9 posted on 01/07/2010 9:54:04 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Claud
I find the authors' argument singularly unconvincing. No book can be greater than its author--and the Bible cannot be greater than the Church that wrote it.

The church did not write the scriptures...Paul the Apostle preached and wrote this particular book of the scriptures as he was led by Jesus, to and for the churches...Paul's books in particular are addressed to the churches...

The words of God, the scriptures, are the inspired words of God...There is nothing greater on this earth, outside of God, than his written words...His words are Truth...

27 posted on 01/08/2010 7:21:17 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Claud
There isn't ONE of the ancient Churches, not the Catholics, not the Orthodox, not the Orientals, whom Reformed Christians can look to and say....yes...those guys kept the faith entire., is there?

I believe most current evangelical/orthodox Reformed scholars would readily admit there are true Christians within all the groups you mentioned. The line between the reformational idea of a "true church" which is flawed (as all churches are)and one destroyed by heresy....is often a hard one to draw, however.

Heresy, according to noted Reformed scholar H. O. J. Brown in his book "Heresies" is a doctrine so important gotten wrong, that it is in danger of destroying the church which believes it. I don't know of any Reformed scholar that would say, something like the error of the perpetual virginity of Mary (not mentioned in the bible) rises to the level of heresy (after all, both Luther and Calvin still believed it...). However, something like the virgin birth (by which we know Jesus is totally unique--the miraculous Son of God by the power of the Holy Spirit from His very conception) would certainly be heresy--as would the current apostasies regarding homosexuality in mainline denominations.

Heresies are wrong beliefs about things SO important, they can actually drag people to hell.

Hence I think it's very possible to have longstanding groups (like the Roman and E. Orthodox Churches) with erronous beliefs all within and around them--but when/where those wrong beliefs are not pushed, a church can have lots of believers as part of her. And if the real definition of "Church" means, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt. 18:20), then regardless the errors of a particular human organization--the divine body of Christ exists--as it has continually since Pentecost.

The invisible--fully known only to our Lord--understanding of "Church" makes such a concept intelligible. And, to someone who assumes a visible Church standard (that is one human organization...)--I realize, this cannot be understood, let alone accepted.

Anglican Reformer Richard Hooker said as much to radically Reformed Christians of his day--who feared that 1000 years of their ancestors under the erroneous Roman Church must of gone to hell. God, indicated Hooker, is very merciful to the ignorant--provided they trusted and totally relied on His grace, in humility, and not their own merit.

The primary objection of Reformed Christians to Rome and the E. Orthodox is a synergism which sees our justification before God a result of Jesus AND our own works--instead of ALL credit going to the Lord Jesus alone.

Roman Catholics who emphasize and wholly rely on God's grace (even those, who like Augustine, see the the grace of the Holy Spirit working in our own works) I would estimate are safe. Those on the other hand who, like the Pharisees of old, consider themselves worthy recipients of God's rewards....are in serious danger of Hell. Of course hypocrites like that can be found in every denomination--and every congregation. Wheat and tares do grow together in this age.

34 posted on 01/09/2010 1:04:29 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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