Those who know and love Jesus as Lord are one, in Him--even if in different human organizations.
It is also a fact that all kinds of people--including important theologians--with all kinds of contradictory beliefs call themselves Roman Catholic--and have not been formally, publicly removed from the Roman Church (and yes, I know about the cop-out called latae sententiae). If you take officially stated doctrines, plus all the varied opinions of baptized Roman Catholics (Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy come to mind....)(not to mention, variations in Tradition), you have as many or more variations of belief and practice as you find amidst Protestants. Not only that, but in the USA alone, there are dozens of different groups which claim to be "Roman Catholic" who have competing claims of doctrine, and leadership, to the official Roman denomination. Mel Gibson, for example, is associated with one of these.
The Roman Church itself--since it originally consisted of only one of the 5 original principalities of the Church--broke away from the Eastern Church in AD 1054. Thereafter it only maintained its internal unity through force of law...routinely persecuting or executing those who disagreed. From the Eastern point of view it is the Latin church which was schismatic...
verdadjusticia had WRITTEN:It has not decided on an definitive answer to ONE SINGLE QUESTION! In almost 500 years it still has not even decided if Jesus Christ is God, or if you must be baptized to be saved.
I don't know of a single orthodox Protestant denomination that has not consistently maintained Jesus as God since they were begun.... All agree too, that Christians should be baptized--even as we find the precise meaning of baptism holy and mysterious. Yes, recently liberal groups have denied the essentials (just like certain individuals and professors within Roman Catholicism)...and this is why new, conservative Churches have formed--and are growing, even as mainline apostate denominations are dying. The core doctrines amidst the conservatives are the same as 100...or 500 years ago. Do we have the same teachings on say....slavery as 200 years ago? No. Does Rome? I know I for one recite (and sincerely believe) the Nicene Creed every week. Every conservative Protestant denomination I know of also subscribes to the doctrines found in the Nicene creed.
AnalogReigns ASKED: Your argument is nonsensical, as, every group claiming to be Christian also claims to have the best (or only) understanding of truth. (actually that is a statement, not a question)
verdadjusticia ANSWERS: That is not accurate, for not one Protestant organization has maintained FOREVER the same doctrines. Truth is unchangeable. Protestants do not claim absolute truth. ONLY the Catholic Church has unchanged doctrines that are absolute truth and are unalterable. There is no other religion that has servived the test of time on their so-called “truths’. they have abandoned them all.
Recognizing God's Word be absolute truth alone, is hardly abandoing "so called "truths"" Since you lump traditional Protestants in with Mormons or anyone else who claims the name "Christian" I have no idea what specific group you are criticizing. It's about as helpful as criticizing "white peoples religion..."
Truth is unchangeable, however, human beings are fallible--even humans who are popes, or who have belonged to Church councils. Therefore, except that which we KNOW is revealed from God--connected directly to the Apostles who were eye-witnesses of Jesus, that is the holy Scriptures, we cannot make (fallible, human opinions) "unchangeable" or else we become like the ancient Persian emperors--having bad laws that can never be undone--and that places fallible humans over and above God's holy Word.
AnalogReigns ASKED: to say Protestant groups haven’t agreed on everything, therefore that makes them all false, is like an atheist saying, “All religions for thousands of years have not decided on an definitive answer to ONE SINGLE QUESTION! Therefore they must ALL be false!” That’s a statement which I know you’ll agree, is ridiculous (even though that’s what your typical agnostic/atheist will say...).Once more, a statement. Discussion is impossible without the distinction between questions and statements
verdadjusticia ANSWERED: I don’t agree, there is only one religion that has decided the definitive answer to those questions which it has defined dogmatically. So, your analogy is wrong misapplied to Catholicism.
That's ridiculous. Many religions have defined dogmas. My point stands....To say that Protestant (which you seem to define as any and all groups not Roman Catholic) differ on points of doctrine, or have changed points of (minor) doctrine over time it proves they are false is the same as saying since religions in general differ, or have changed over time, they are therefore all false. That's a logical fallacy as ALL religious change to some degree over time.
AnalogReigns ASKED: Historically the only proven alternative to divided Christian groups—is a state enforced official religion (which until the 1500s was Roman Catholicism in western Europe) something which no true American lover of liberty will endorse.Once again, a STATEMENT, NOT a question...
verdadjusticia ANSWERED: the unity of doctrine of the Catholic Church has nothing to do with the populace. The Catholic Church today numbers about 1 billion people. If it was only 50,000, the unity of doctrine would still prevail. Protestants have no unity of doctrine. They actually have no defined doctrines which they have not changed.
Unity of doctrine? LIke how your average (baptized, Roman catholic) Italian believes, verses your average RC Philipino vs. your average RC American? How about what popes taught as 100 years ago...or 500 years ago, verses now? Unchanged? What dream world do you live in?
One example will suffice: Capitol punishment was not protested in principle by Rome until the last 30 years or so (correspondingly when secular Europe--home of the Vatican--also rejected capitol punishment). So somehow, the position of the Roman Church, the same institution and leaders which rejoiced in the murder of literally tens of thousands of Calvinist Protestant civilains in the 1570s, compared to today--when it protests the just execution of the worst murderers imaginable, is unchanged? Silly on its face.
AnalogReigns ASKED:
Unity of doctrine? Like how your average (baptized, Roman catholic) Italian believes, verses your average RC Filipino vs. your average RC American? How about what popes taught as 100 years ago...or 500 years ago, verses now? Unchanged? What dream world do you live in?
verdadjusticia ANSWERED:
All Catholics anywhere in the world have to believe the defined doctrines of the Church, or they are not Catholics. By everything that you wrote in your posting, it appears that you are not aware of what those doctrines are
Yes, Unity of doctrine! Like how your average (baptized, Roman Rite Catholic) Italian , Philipino and American, and Eastern Rite Catholic Syrian, all Catholics, have to believe the same doctrines. Yes, the popes taught as 100 years ago...or 500 years ago, same doctrines verses now, Unchanged. It is reality, not a dream world. Here are some unchanged doctrines, there are many others.
- The Holy Trinity
- Jesus Christ is God
- The Incarnation
- The Resurrection
- the Real Presence
- The pope is infallible when he declares himself as such on matters of Faith and Morals
- The Catholic Church is the final authority on Scripture.
-Purgatory
- Marriage is indissoluble
- Use of contraceptives are forbidden, and a mortal sin
- a Catholic who dies with one unconfessed mortal sin will not be saved.
- There are seven sacraments
- The Assumption
- The Immaculate Conception
AnalogReigns WROTE:
One example will suffice: Capitol punishment was not protested in principle by Rome until the last 30 years or so (correspondingly when secular Europe—home of the Vatican—also rejected capitol punishment). So somehow, the position of the Roman Church, the same institution and leaders which rejoiced in the murder of literally tens of thousands of Calvinist Protestant civilains in the 1570s, compared to today—when it protests the just execution of the worst murderers imaginable, is unchanged? Silly on its face.
verdadjusticia ANSWERS:
The Catholic Church has never had any defined infallible doctrine on the death penalty. The Calvinist were at war with the Catholic countries, what do you expect Catholics to do, let them burn down their churches and kill their priests?
AnalogReigns WROTE:
It is also a fact that all kinds of people—including important theologians—with all kinds of contradictory beliefs call themselves Roman Catholic—and have not been formally, publicly removed from the Roman Church .
It is the exception of our times. They are not the rule of all times. A blip in time. Those dissenting theologinas have no authority. The popes have not declared any new doctrines from those theologinas. During the Arian heresy it is said that there were practically no Catholic bishops that had not gone Arian, it last a few decades and the Church cam out clensed of the heresy.
AnalogReigns WROTE;
If you take officially stated doctrines,
Doctrines must be adhered to under under penalty of excommunication. there are no new doctrines. You don’t know what doctrines are.
AnalogReigns WRTE:
plus all the varied opinions of baptized Roman Catholics (Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy come to mind....)(not to mention, variations in Tradition), you have as many or more variations of belief and practice as you find amidst Protestants.
verdadjusticia ANSWERS:
those individuals have no authority, they are not authorities. They are nobodies. The Protestant church authorities have changed all their doctrines over time. The pope has not changed any dogmas (defined infallible doctrines)
AnalogReigns WROTE:
The Roman Church itself—since it originally consisted of only one of the 5 original principalities of the Church—broke away from the Eastern Church in AD 1054.
verdadjusticia ANSWERS:
No credible historian aggrees with your outlandish memory of history. Read your Brittania Encyclopedia and see for yourself who broke away from who. Your comment is not even worthy of a response.
AnalogReigns WROTE: From the Eastern point of view it is the Latin church which was schismatic...
verdadjusticia ANSWERED:
If you really believe that, then you should become an Eastern Orthodox, for it is the true Church.