You wrote:
“Nope”
Yep.
“As scripture says, “For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” — Romans 3”
That in no way overturns my point. Again, you are confusing one thing with another. The fact that we are not on our own righteous does not mean that we don’t have a built-in desire to be saved.
I really have to thank you. I don’t mean this as an insult, but you have shown me - perhaps more conclusively than any situation I have ever seen - as to why Protestantism is dangerous to orthodox theology. I see no indication that many of the most basic concepts of theology are part of your understanding of the nature of man or God.
“Nope.”
Yes. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that man was not created with a desire to be saved (without which we would have no conscience and no sense of sin) and then turn around and claim that God did not intend to create things which would not serve Him. That is a logical impossiblity. It also is just plain nuts.
“God made things that might not serve Him, so that He could make things that willingly chose to obey Him. God did not force any of us to disobey - we did that on our own.”
That’s what I have been saying. But that fact does not change the fact that we have a built-in desire to be saved. That’s why we have a sense of sin.
“Nope. I’m not a Calvinist, although I sometimes defend him against unfair attacks.”
It doesn’t matter. You have worked yourself into a logical corner.
“God doesn’t force us to obey, nor does He force us to disobey.”
EXACTLY. And that isn’t what we’re talking about anyway. What we’re talking about is the FACT that we have a built-in desire to be saved.
“That is how REBELS define the common good. THEY say the common good is to continue in sin.”
And that’s what YOU have been saying. Now you are finally beginning to make some distinctions. The fact that rebels decide to live like rebels does not change the fact that they have a built-in desire to be saved. The one does not negate the other.
“That is evil, but that is the ‘common good’ they seek - BECAUSE they are rebels.”
It isn’t the common good. Stop saying sin is the common good. At least now you’re using quote marks. Why not just get it right from the beginning and acknowledge that there is a common good even if people refuse to honor it?
“People do not seek what is TRULY good for them because they do not want it.”
Wrong. They DO want it, but what they do is try to appease that desire with worldly counterfeits. You have it EXACTLY backwards. If people truly never wanted what was good for them then NO ONE would ever turn toward God. And before you say, “Well, they do that because of God’s grace,” remember that grace BUILD ON NATURE rather than changes it.
“We are sinners. Some of us are saved and become new creations, but sinners do not seek out God or desire to obey Him.”
False. First of all, are you a sinner or not? I am. I seek out God and always have. Are you claiming NOT TO BE A SINNER? I can tell you right now - even if I can’t read your heart - YOU are a sinner. Just like the rest of us. You’ve been a sinner for a very long time - yet you turned toward God. The idea that a sinner can’t seek out God or doesn’t ever desire to obey God means anyone who is a sinner (pssst... that’s all of us!) is doomed. Again, you have painted yourself into a logic corner from which there is no escape.
“Nope. They sought their own advancement in power.”
All of them? Even the martyrs? David and Solomon didn’t? Yet Israel was a nation sanctioned by God Himself.
“Popes and kings sought power, not holiness.”
All of them? Come on.
“The Holy Roman Empire was neither.”
(sigh) Neither what? There are three things there: Holy, Roman, Empire. And what of it? It was holier than any country today since it honored Christ everywhere. We can’t even pray in our schools today without harrassment yet the HRE’s schools were ALL Christian institutions.
“The Old Testament has PEOPLE being punished for sin.”
Yeah, and?
“It wasn’t the state decisions that resulted in punishment, but the sin of the people living there...”
EXACTLY. The people. We are responsible. We are responsible NOW.
“and even then, God gave them much mercy and delayed punishment until they were ripe for it. Why did God judge Babylon, for example?”
More important, why did God spare Nineveh in Jonah?
You really need to study scripture more because you do not understand how God created man with a desire to know Him.
You need to study more, to understand that humans do not seek out God. We are SINNERS.
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” - Ephesians 2
Feel free to show me where scripture teaches we have a built-in desire to be saved. You keep asserting it, but not showing where God agrees with your assessment. God desires that all men repent, yet only a small minority do - why is this if we all desire God?
“You can’t say that man was not created with a desire to be saved (without which we would have no conscience and no sense of sin) and then turn around and claim that God did not intend to create things which would not serve Him. That is a logical impossiblity. It also is just plain nuts.”
If man has a free will - required if we are to be sons and not just servants - then we have the ability to reject God.
Again - you keep asserting that we all have the desire to seek God and be saved. You even write, “I seek out God and always have.”
God call you a liar. “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” and “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
“And before you say, “Well, they do that because of God’s grace,” remember that grace BUILD ON NATURE rather than changes it.”
Wrong again. Grace does not improve us. Grace transforms us. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” God revealed to Ezekial, “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
You write, “The idea that a sinner can’t seek out God or doesn’t ever desire to obey God means anyone who is a sinner (pssst... that’s all of us!) is doomed. Again, you have painted yourself into a logic corner from which there is no escape.”
Nope. I didn’t look for God. God looked for me. “According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope...” 1 Peter 1.
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation...”
God initiated everything. I accepted his revelation. I did not claw my way to salvation. I wasn’t looking for it. I didn’t seek God. And God says NO ONE seeks Him - not even you.