Posted on 12/16/2009 7:16:21 PM PST by Silly
Your beef is not with me FRiend. Your beef is with your Creator and His choice of words. I say, Yes, one should regard God with fear and trembling. So it is written.
All are sinners, saved or not. I pray you are in the former group. But with your discourse, I would suspect not.
I have no fear of that ‘opposite number’. He holds no sway while I keep the Lord in sight.
Your refusal to acknowledge that your Creator should be regarded with ‘fear and trembling’ sounds like a rather healthy dose of self-pride. “For what reason should I fear God? He is nothing to fear at all!!”
I need to reconcile nothing at all. That is done in the Bible for you, if you will read. God is a loving God, and desires that not one be lost to hell. However, along with loving, He is Just. And if a person refuses the way to salvation, then Justice says that there be a penalty, and it will be applied.
Obscure definitions? The Bible was written in other languages not English. Translate your everyday speech into French or Greek and there will be times where you will NOT be understood. Why? Words have different meanings when used in different languages or cultures. Those meanings have EVERY bearing on what is meant by the text.
You do not get to have the God you WANT. He is as He is. He has told us, in the Bible, what is necessary. Read it, do not make the mistake of ‘constructing’ the God you feel warm and comfy with and counting on that to give you salvation. Those without salvation will hear some very sad words, perhaps the saddest in the Bible - “Depart from me, ye workers of iniquities, I never knew you.”
I am sorry to fall back on the “faith” thing again, but I could tell you how chocolate tastes or the thrill of riding a roller coaster, and I am pretty sure you would still be fully ignorant of the true taste of chocolate or the true thrill of riding a roller coaster.
The bible says what it says and you believe or you don’t. Hell, as laid out by the bible, is pretty clear. I just don’t believe it. Bad Catholic, I guess. I don’t believe that God would give up on stupid ignorant people any sooner than loving parents would.
I realize everyone here is saying that you are consiously, freely CHOOSING to neglet God, and it is fundamentally agreed that we have the free will to do so. What I question is that people have the capacity to truly understand what it is they are rejecting. And if they don’t, are they really responsible? And if not, how can God hold them responsible for making an ignorant decision they were not capable of making.
Suffice to say, my viewpoint is uniquely mine and not many people share it. I can’t say there isn’t a hell. I can’t say we don’t choose it. I can only wonder if God, in his infinite love, can really hold man responsible for rejecting him, in his ignorance.
I’m not saying we aren’t inherently selfish and bad and capable of rejecting God so we can play and have fun and indulge in temptation. I am just asking a question.
Is man REALLY so informed of the nature of God that he is capable of rejecting such a wonderful person? I am given to wonder, if people really, really knew and understood Gods love and nature, if it would even be possible to reject him? That is my point.
I mean, who on earth ever rejected Mother Theresa? You see the love she had and sacrifice she made for others, and you would have to be crazy not to love and respect her and desire to be in her presence. God is Mother Theresa to an infinite power. How can a rational, informed, sane person reject him outright?
Because I can’t conceive of the answer, I can only imagine that it is profound ignorance alone about the love, character and nature of God that would allow someone to truly reject him and say “I don’t want you, I don’t want to be with you, I don’t want your love”.
You see, I can’t imagine that.
Someon please answer a question.
To what end does God need hell? Why? What does he get out of it.
A masochistic being would derive enormous pleasure from seeing his rivals, opponents, enemies suffer everlasting torture. I would think this would cause God nothing but grief at the wasted potential of the people who “chose” hell over him.
What does God get out of hell? The entire universee exists to serve God. If you believe in a physical realm called Hell where everlasting punishment is meted out, then to what purpose did God make it.
You see, I don’t believe God has a single mean, vindictive, masochistic bone in his body. I don’t believe he is capable of deriving joy from hurting people. You can say he is only dispensing justice, made doubly fair because people have freely, knowingly chosen their lot in hell.
But God is the father of all of us. He created all of us to serve him and wants all of us to join him in Heaven. I’m pretty sure he does not hope to lose even one soul. So then, what does God get out of Hell?
FWIW, I believe the opposite of God is lack of God, not a physical dimension of everlasting punishment called “hell”. If anything, I believe your soul ceases to exist if you knowingly reject God, if that is even possible as I wrote above.
To what purpose did God create Hell and what does he get out of it?
ping
I don’t demand anything from God. I can’t. I’m trying to reason my beliefs against biblical teachings.
I can’t conceive of a merciless God. Parents teach you and when you still touch the stove and burn your fingers, they don’t say “I taught you and you never leaned. If you like the stove, here, I’ll push you in the oven and put it on 450-degrees.”
Parents don’t give up on you. I am having a very hard time believing that Christ give up on you any more easily. There are hard-headed kids that never learn, and parents don’t stop loving them as a result of their kids continuing poor behavior.
The bible says those who reject Christ will suffer eternal damnation in hell. I am aware of what the bible says. I can’t reconcile that against the thought that God is far more loving of me than even my parents. I can’t reconcile the thought that if I am stupid or ignorant enough to reject him, that he is going to push me in that oven and set it on 450-degrees.
That is my problem. The bible makes it clear you accept Christ as your savior or, sayonnara baby, it is off to hell. This violates my belief in the character of Christ. I can’t reconcile the two. I can’t.
I thougth there were more than 2 choices. What about all of the aborted children and those delivered, who have original sin but are never baptized. Since Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and most others on this planet are never baptized in Christ, doesn’t that mean that 4-billion people on the planet have the doors of Heaven instantly closed to them?
Ah, the enigma that is Christianity and the Bible!
Hmmmmmm
Christ mentioned hell a fair amount, IIRC.
“I don’t demand anything from God. I can’t. I’m trying to reason my beliefs against biblical teachings.”
Against biblical teachings?
That is why you are struggling. If you truly trusted God and his judgement you probably would not be struggling with this.
You are judging God. I don’t recommend this practice.
I am not attacking you, I am concerned for you.
From 1 Corinthians
Wisdom From the Spirit
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
16”For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
This is Gods nature:
He is Rightous, Holy and most of all, he not to be judged by man.
From Exodus 33
19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
I have read that God gives up on no one, and sends no one to hell ... they send themselves.
That is the traditional Christian belief.
John 6: 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" 61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 21 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." 66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
All of those former disciples left Him.
And the kicker: how many of His Apostles and disciples were present at the Crucifixion?
The final, most drastic method to get your attention?
As a result of Judgement of one's deeds.
I know this is an old thread but anyway I thought I'll add to it. Well how do we not know that you haven't created a God to suit your self. Frankly I don't believe you have, but in the same forked tongue you still have the flesh that lives in you which creates a God to suit your ungodly flesh. Its only the Holy Spirit within us that truly worships a true God. Of course I don't have any scripture to back myself up, but then again you didn't either.
But I've got to believe that unborn again man at the time of the flood is no different from a unborn again man in todays life and that is they do not believe that they need to be saved. To interrupt that picture from an unrepentant sinners heart you would have to say those sinners more likely are saying, "hey jump out of that Ark and joy this new experience of swimming, nothing is going to happen to you." instead of the "help, I'm drowning in my sin."
“I am not prepared to believe that hell is for people who reject Christ out of hand from pure ignorance.”
Those who are ignorant of Christ will still have rejected God as per Romans 1 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19SINCE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN TO THEM, BECAUSE GOD HAS MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are WITHOUT EXCUSE.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.”
If someone who has never heard of Christ looks at creation and instead of worshipping it, wishes to know about the Creator, I’m sure God would send someone to explain. There are many accounts of missionaries who go to places where Christ has never been heard of and when they meet the locals they are told “We’ve been waiting for you.” Obviously at least one person there recognised that there is a Creator.
I insist on nothing. It is as it is. I read the Word and it says what it says, it says what God would have us know of Him. I did not get to choose Gods words for Him. But I can read what He told Moses and others to write and try to understand.
Fear, as was described earlier is not the terror of which you speak and it is disingenuous for you to use that word.
Go on believing in you warm and cuddly, no consequences version of God. I hope it serves you well.
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