NZ Anglican Church's Billboard Mocks Mary, Joseph and Virgin Birth

St. Mathew In The City ^ | 13 Dec 2009 | Glynn Cardy

[ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY]

I wasn’t trying to insult you personally, but what you wrote is out of islamic theology; NOT Christianity.

[ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY]

In support of your statement, “..scripturally, it is stated that a ‘day is like a thousand years’..”

The Hebrew word for “day” means the same thing it does in English: “Daytime”; 24 hours (sunset to sunset); or an unspecific period of time such as “Age, Era, etc.”

[Zionist Conspirator]

Yes, I know the laws of nature very well.

And as a uniformitarian you assume that they have been unaltered and uniform from the first instant of "creation" onward. This means that human children cannot be born to virgin mothers.

That's the whole point. We can examine the earth and come to a very good conclusion that it is way older than 6,000 years.

Yes, assuming that the laws of nature have been uniform from the "singularity" at the "big bang." These laws say that Adam could not have been created by G-d as an adult but must have been born to parents who were themselves descended from generations and generations of evolving ancestors. The same laws say that human virgin females do not give birth. If one did, your assumption that G-d could not have created an adult Adam from dirt 5769+ years ago is in error.

It's probably even older than Helen Thomas. But unless we can examine Mary and/or Jesus' DNA, we can't be sure, scientifically, that He was conceived of a virgin.

So instead you accept it on "faith" while rejecting the chronology of the Torah on the chauvinistic assumption that your religion is superior.

The point is miracles happen.

If they do, then you cannot assume uniformitarianism or the idea that the formation of the universe occurred naturally over long periods of time after an initial "supernatural creation."

We have all the evidence in the world (literally) that whereas the creation of the Universe may have been a miracle (probably was,

If not, it must be eternal and self-existent.

as tricks go it's a damn good one), it's not a 6,000-year-old miracle.

Then I guess Mary didn't give birth as a virgin.

At this point in time there is no way to tell that the miracle of the Virgin birth happened. Scientific Method working with the Laws of Nature, you know

If the "laws of nature" will not allow for the supernatural creation/formation of the universe at the time and within the time frame as narrated in the Torah, then they will not allow for a human "virgin birth" and the idea must be rejected.

[Tennessee Nana]

DHH: think you better take that back. I’m happy to debate with you but I will not be insulted.
_________________________________________________

Yes, Die will be the one to hand out the insults...

Thank you very much...

[DieHard the Hunter]

> Hey, I took a dig at the Maoris too!

LOL! The plural for "Maori" is "Maori". And it is almost never preceded with the article "the", unless used as an adjective.

Hey, I took a dig at your point, too. And made about the same amount of sense as you did.

To the extent that Maori have religion these days, most would profess to be Christian of some stripe or another.

There is the Ratana Church, of course, and Ringatu -- those might be the ones you mean. There is also the Destiny Church, which is something of a more modern, evangelical phenomenon.

[marshmallow]

On what basis do you say that? Do you know that congregation first-hand? (I don’t yet, so I am curious).

It's not necessary to know the congregation. A knowledge of what, if anything, is being taught is all that is required. If the congregation is being fed a distorted version of the Christian Gospel, heresy, or is being allowed to embrace whatever theology it pleases, then nobody is being "Christianized".

This is not a judgment of people. It's a judgment of doctrine and theology.

In any event, fortunately we aren’t the ones who want convincing. Our Lord gets to decide whether they have been Christianized or not.

God judges men's hearts but we get to judge whether the Gospel is being preached in all its fullness and truth. St. Paul railed against "false teachers". So did Jesus. There is a difference between the various Christian professions and if a man asks you for guidance, will you point him in the direction of a false teacher?

And we are told that we will be surprised at who Christ recognizes as His Own when He returns. On that basis I think it wise to keep an open mind, and to work out our own salvation, with trembling and fear, never minding what the other bloke is doing or not doing.

A "whatever floats your boat attitude" is not Christian. Is the homosexual lifestyle sinful and destructive? If so, do we say so or we lead the gay community on and tell them everything is cool? Is that what happens at St. Matthew's? I'm almost certain it is. That is not "Christianizing" anyone. Confirming people in their sin simply allows you to share their guilt.

The Pharisee had set the bar up pretty high for himself, whereas the Publican merely wanted forgiveness. We know which one Christ was pleased with.

The first step on the road to forgiveness is acknowledging one's sin. Sin is not a word you will hear much of at St. Matthew's unless it's the collective "sin" of society, structures and corporations.

Trust me.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Are you saying that the creation of the universe (however long it took - being after all, scripturally, it is stated that a "day is like a thousand years" and vice versa), by a God with no beginning and no end, is something that can ever be completely or literally understood even by "formitarian" facts that of themselves (as well as the human mind itself doing the interpreting) are of a completely different and limited categorical dimension than the subject being studied itself?? Absurdity!

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making, but I'll answer what I believe your question to be.

The exact manner and mode of the creation is part of the esoteric mystical tradition and is known only to those to whom it has been expounded. I am not claiming that I know this or that "any milkmaid" (as Luther would have put it) can read the text of Genesis and understand exactly how it was done or all of the details.

What I am insisting on is that the formation of the universe cannot be reduced to purely natural laws and processes as we know them today (and happening in a time frame which such processes would require today) by anyone who believes in an Omnipotent G-d and in the supernatural without that person being illogical and inconsistent.

I am also saying that anyone who rejects the "literal" truth of Genesis but who defends the literal truth of the "virgin birth" is inconsistent and a hypocrite.

[DieHard the Hunter]

> I wasn’t trying to insult you personally,

Fair enough.

> but what you wrote is out of islamic theology; NOT Christianity.

I was raised in a Christian church and this is what we were taught, and I still believe it. I haven’t seen a convincing argument to the contrary.

[marshmallow]

Yes, you are correct about how Kupe pulled NZ out of the ocean.

However, in Maori mythology the "god" with the creative power is Tane. That is to say "creative" in the sense of giving life to man and woman.

[ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY]

“I haven’t seen a convincing argument to the contrary.”

The quote from Genesis wasn’t convincing?

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thanks for the correction.

My point is that the same "progressives" who gleefully rip the Bible to shreds in the name of "science" and "what we know now" would never ever in a zillion years cast aspersions on "indigenous pipples" interpreting their own creation myths every bit as literally as any Bible-thumper interprets Genesis.

The enlightened, iconoclastic scientist and the "noble savage" make a strange tag team. But a lifetime of watching professional rasslin' back in the days of kayfabe taught me that, however illogical it is, the "heels" never fight among themselves.

[Iscool]

I wonder too just why Jesus had to give His mother to His beloved apostle, John, for care until her death, from the cross itself, at the moment of His own death, IF He had so many “brethren” (or literal, brothers, as interpreted by the other “progressives” here rather than the researched common usage of the term at the time) who would have naturally had that responsibility, esp. within the Orthodox Jewish Faith. Of course, just as this “preacher” does, apparently others here must, in this matter as well, rely only upon the limitations of the “literal” current interpretations by the skeptics.

You're in luck...All you have to do is get on a bus to Wal-Mart and pick yourself up a cheap bible, and read it...

Unlike religions that make stuff up and call it 'tradition', this information can actually be found in the written words of God...

The Apostle John was the most loved and trusted of the Apostles...

At the time of, and leading up to the the Crucifixion, Jesus' brothers did not believe in Jesus as the Son of God...Jesus wanted a Christian to look after His mom...So Jesus appointed His most trusted friend, John to look after her...

Besides, John was the only Apostle there...Peter and the rest of the bunch chickened out and didn't want to be caught any where near the Crucifixion...

[DieHard the Hunter]

> It’s not necessary to know the congregation. A knowledge of what, if anything, is being taught is all that is required.

So your answer to my question is “No, you do not know the congregation first hand.”

A follow-up question then, based on your answer:

Do you have a first-hand knowledge of what, if anything, is being taught to this congregation?

> This is not a judgment of people. It’s a judgment of doctrine and theology.

Unfortunately for all, the one becomes the other, and is inseparable.

[Hegewisch Dupa]

If the "laws of nature" will not allow for the supernatural creation/formation of the universe at the time and within the time frame as narrated in the Torah, then they will not allow for a human "virgin birth" and the idea must be rejected.Seriously, that's just horrifically poor logic. Like looking at a car that totaled, I don't where to begin to repair. So I'll just go to the fatal flaw in your argument:

This means that human children cannot be born to virgin mothers.

By the Laws of Nature, they can't. I buy into the miracle, which by definition exists outside the Laws of Nature.

[Zionist Conspirator]

This means that human children cannot be born to virgin mothers.

By the Laws of Nature, they can't. I buy into the miracle, which by definition exists outside the Laws of Nature.

Then you'll have no trouble believing that the universe was created during six days 5769+ years ago, since that was outside nature as well. After all, nature is what was being created. It didn't exist to govern the process.

[marshmallow]

A follow-up question then, based on your answer: Do you have a first-hand knowledge of what, if anything, is being taught to this congregation?

Yes.

I am a New Zealander. Auckland is my home town. I go back there from time to time and have many friends there.

Back in the '80s, there was talk of closing St. Matthew's. In fact, I'm not sure that it didn't actually close for a while. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure it did. It was a dead zone. As an inner city Anglican parish, it's numbers had dwindled and nothing was happening. Then it took a sharp left turn and reopened as a with-it, church-in the-now.

This is not the first time they have caused controversy. There have been other incidents. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was all part of the marketing drive to get people to come. At times they went for the "shock" factor and apparently still do.

Unfortunately for all, the one becomes the other, and is inseparable.

Entirely wrong.

I can say that the Jehovah's Witness credo is not Christian without having to judge a soul. Any sect which denies the divinity of Christ is not "Christianizing" anyone. It follows logically from this that I wouldn't attend a JW service, nor would I advise anyone else to do so.

Am I being too judgmental or should I just say "yeah......go along and check it out for yourself."?

[Tennessee Nana]

Oh I just meant the guy himself not the god...

We learnt a lot about the Maoris and their history in school...

We called them Maoris with the s...

We learnt Maori words, did canoe dances, stick dances, poi, hakas and sang Maori songs...

However the “religious instruction” classes in our government schools were always about Christianity...

[Tennessee Nana]

Auckland ???

I was born in the South Island...

My family were on the Cressy...

:)

[Tennessee Nana]

I was back there last December...

I was there in 2000 for the 150th of the First Four Ships to Lyttleton..

I’ve been here since 1971..

[Hegewisch Dupa]

Let me try this way. Let's say we found some of the wine from the wedding at Cana. Let's be even more ridiculous and pretend it really was grape juice (I love the irony of religions who claim to take the Bible literally true are more than happy to read that as "grape juice" - but I digress....) Now since I have this grape juice in front of me, I can analyze it. If my analysis found it contained Kool-Aid, then I have SERIOUS problem with the "water-into-wine (sorry - grape juice)" miracle. I still have zero scientific reason to halt my faith in the Virgin Birth however. The one don't affect the other.

Ignore my anachronistic failing of using Kool-Aid millennia before its invention...