[daniel1212]

A fair question, as admittedly it sounds as if some doctrines are not essential, but what it refers to are those which are manifest in the Scriptures as essential to salvation, which includes the nature of God and Christ and what He did, as articulated in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, versus Gnostic, Arian, Sabellianism, as well as the means of salvation. (Gal. 1:6-9) Rome herself recognizes a distinction between dogma, and doctrines which are not salvifically essential, and very little of the Bible has been officially defined, nor has an infallible list of all that has been infallibly defined been provided. However, those who deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh are not of God (1 Jn. 4:2), and as Christ is declared to be God manifest in the flesh, (Jn. 1:1,14; and the sinless savior, (1Pt. 2:22-24), thus Arians are not saved. Likewise, Scripture plainly declares that righteousness is imputed by faith, albeit this being a faith that follows Christ - overall practicing righteousness in response - thus those who trust in the merit of their works, or the power of their church, are not saved. We see that the gospel which resulted in regeneration preached these truths, while issues such as the time of the rapture, musical instruments or finer details of theology may allow some degree of disagreement. The point of the post was, that even in it weakened state - due to compromise of the faith via yielding to the culture, and not be any fault of the faith - evangelicals consistently evidence a greater degree of fruits of regeneration and doctrinal unity in basic tenets the faith than than their R.C. counterparts. This is more critical for Catholics, as they preach a church which they tell evangelicals they must join, while the latter preach a faith which requires Biblical warrant, not faith in an infallible church.

Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force." ^7.5The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

• Only 33% of Catholics strongly affirmed that Christ was sinless on earth. ⁷http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=92

• 88% of Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good Catholics. New York Times/CBS News poll, Apr. 21-23, 1994, subsample of 446 Catholics, MOE ± 5%.

• 70 % of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus [it is, of His death], indicating they do not believe it is Jesus actual body and blood [as Rome erroneously teaches]. New York Times/CBS News poll, Apr. 21-23, 1994, subsample of 446 Catholics, MOE ± 5%

• Only 30% of Catholics said believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine. 1992 Gallup poll

• Age 65 and over, 51% of Catholics said they believe in the above doctrine. New York Times and CBS poll of Catholics. http://www.catholicapologetics.com/ba3.htm

• 26 percent of Catholics polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivoval position on abortion. Catholic World Report; Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut.

• Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained. ^Roper Center for Public Opinion

• 33 percent go to confession less than once a year. ^Roper Center for Public Opinion

• Only 30 percent said they read the Bible more than once a month. ^Roper Center for Public Opinion

• 46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong. ^Roper Center for Public Opinion

• 73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control. ^Roper Center for Public Opinion

• 31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases. Copyright © 2004 -- The Gallup Organization Gallup Survey for Catholics Speak Out: 802 Catholics, May 1992, MOE ± 4%

• Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. Alan Guttmacher Institute http://www.catholicleague.org/research/catholic_women_and_abortion.htm

• 66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church. Surveying the Religious Landscape: Trends in U.S. Beliefs by George Gallup, Jr. and D. Michael Lindsay (Morehouse Publishing, 1999). Copyright © 2004 -- The Gallup Organization www.gallup.com

• 80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic. Time/CNN nationwide poll of 1,000 adults, conducted by Yankelovich Partners, Sept. 27-28, 1995; subsample of 500 Catholics, MOE ± 4.5%

• 77 % of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing. 1999 poll by the National Catholic Reporter. http://www.catholictradition.org/v2-bombs14b.htm

• 59% of all Catholic women of childbearing age practice contraception—a rate of usage statistically equivalent to that of the general population (60%). Calvin Goldscheider and William D. Mosher, "Patterns of Contraceptive Use in the United States:

• Approx. 50% of Catholic priests do not agree with Human Vitae (RC teaching on birth control). Catholic Parish Priests and Birth Control: A Comparative Study of Opinion in Colombia, the United States, and the Netherlands, by Gail A. Shea, Thomas K. Burch, Gustavo Perez, Miriam Ordonez, Joseph Van Kemanade, Jan Hutjes and Andre E. Hellegers © 1971 Population Council.

• 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. ^^8.5Los Angeles Times (extensive) nationwide survey (2002). Arthur Jones, 2002 National Catholic Reporter. Gale Group. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_2_39/ai_94129129/pg_2

• 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations, : 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. ^^8.5

• 71 percent responded that it always was wrong for a woman to get an abortion, 19 percent that it often was, and 4 percent seldom/never. ^^8.5

• 28 percent judged that is always was sin for married couples to use artificial birth control, 25 percent often, 40 percent never. ^^8.5

• 49 percent affirmed that it was always a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, often, 25 percent; and never, 19 percent. ^^8.5

• To take one's own life if suffering from a debilitating disease: always, 59 percent; often, 18 percent; never, 17 percent. ^^8.5

• 15 percent of the current clergy listed themselves as "gay or on the homosexual side." Among younger priests 23 percent did so. ^^8.5

• 44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order. ^^8.5

• Only 30 percent of Catholic (97% claim to be so) in Italy attend church. In larger cities as Milan, the ratio is only 15 percent, according to church officials. Famiglia Cristiana,Catholic weekly magazine.

• In Catholic France (76% claim to be so) only 12 percent say they go to church on Sunday (Vatican officials say only 5 percent in cities such as Paris). Georgetown University's Center for the Study of Global Christianity. Charles M. Sennott, Globe Staff, May 2, 2005 ©Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company. http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/05/02/catholic_church_withers_in_europe?mode=PF

• In Catholic Ireland (90%) less than 50 percent attend Mass even once a month, (down from 91% 30 years ago) estimates a recent church study. ^

[magisterium]

Assuming they're accurate to begin with, all these assertions prove is that modern catholics often do not agree with the tenets of their faith or apply it across the board in their lives. This country is in better shape than most in that regard, but, even here, what knowledgeably Catholic would deny the trend?

This compilation of assertions proves nothing whatsoever regarding the truths of Catholicism, though. If anything, I'm surprised that, rather than try to wedge this into a "proof" that Catholicism is false, more Evangelicals don't point to these sorts of things as yet another sign of The End they're forever predicting for our own generation. After all, one day, Christianity (presumably the "authentic" kind, however one wishes to define that) will in fact, undergo a general apostasy. Scripture is quite plain on this point. So, without any lack of Scriptural consistency, I could use all of your statistics and demonstrate that Catholicism is "the true Christian faith" because it is undergoing at least the beginnings of the very apostasy foretold! After all, one has to be a real believer before one can apostatize! Same thing with a homogeneous body of believers.

I'm not at all sure that we are that close to the End really, though I often wonder if we are at the "beginning of sorrows" Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:8. But your stats, again, might provide evidence not only that we are near the End, but that Catholicism is, in fact, entirely true, insofar as an apostasy is blooming within it at this very time. So the inferences we are supposed to make from your posting of this compilation of data fall through. In fact, even if this current falling away is reversed, and we enter another Golden Age lasting 10,000 years, I would expect another apostasy out of Catholicism, truly leading to The End. The fullness of the Deposit of Faith mill be mirrored by the fullness of darkness, and it only makes sense that people will embrace the latter by undertaking a nearly universal falling away from the former.

[papertyger]

While I appreciate your calm and reasoned tone, the actual content of your post belies a set of assumptions and presumptions that are anything but reasonable.

The set of generally agreed upon "essential" doctrines you allude to simply does not exist. "Essentials" among the reformed are as wide and varied as their denominations. doctrines such as "eternal security" are by no means universally accepted by Biblical Protestants, and one need only ask an adherent to that doctrine to quickly learn they consider it anything but peripheral.

Likewise, the notion that some nebulous group in the Catholic church is depending on their works or their Church for salvation is as cynical and mean-spirited as the pagans who insist preachers are skirt-chasing, money grubbing, hypocrits.

If such non-disprovable slander is "following Christ," I suspect such a follower will ultimately find themselves in the company of many a sorrowful goat.

Further, and speaking from experience, I find the claim that evangelicals display more evidence of regeneration, laughable. Leaving aside the question of how exactly one quantifies such qualities, of what evidence are the "fruits of the spirit" and "doctrinal unity" after surrounding oneself exclusively with those who agree with your particular interpretation of scripture?