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To: daniel1212
While I appreciate your calm and reasoned tone, the actual content of your post belies a set of assumptions and presumptions that are anything but reasonable.

The set of generally agreed upon "essential" doctrines you allude to simply does not exist. "Essentials" among the reformed are as wide and varied as their denominations. doctrines such as "eternal security" are by no means universally accepted by Biblical Protestants, and one need only ask an adherent to that doctrine to quickly learn they consider it anything but peripheral.

Likewise, the notion that some nebulous group in the Catholic church is depending on their works or their Church for salvation is as cynical and mean-spirited as the pagans who insist preachers are skirt-chasing, money grubbing, hypocrits.

If such non-disprovable slander is "following Christ," I suspect such a follower will ultimately find themselves in the company of many a sorrowful goat.

Further, and speaking from experience, I find the claim that evangelicals display more evidence of regeneration, laughable. Leaving aside the question of how exactly one quantifies such qualities, of what evidence are the "fruits of the spirit" and "doctrinal unity" after surrounding oneself exclusively with those who agree with your particular interpretation of scripture?

68 posted on 12/11/2009 11:42:52 PM PST by papertyger (Representation without taxation is tyranny!)
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To: papertyger

Please do not disparage goats. We just got several milkers for the first time, and they are remarkable personable productive animals. They are also somewhat willful, which is in contradistinction to sheep, which are just plain stupid. When Jesus invoked the image of the sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left, I think, and this is my personal interpretation here, that He was singling out their willfullness as what gets them (aka us) in trouble. But as an animal created by God for our benefit, the goat ranks very high. Anyone who knows anything about A2 beta-casein would know this.

Peace, and thanks for your good works, and good will towards all!


70 posted on 12/11/2009 11:59:55 PM PST by blackpacific
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To: papertyger

>The set of generally agreed upon “essential” doctrines you allude to simply does not exist.<

While it is true that no infallible list of all infallibly defined doctrines exists in Rome, and confusion exists as to which some fall into, and Evangelicals do not provide an extensive list either, both Evangelical denominations (such as the largest one) and Catholicism believe that there are doctrines which are essential to salvation, as articulated in statements of faith. Because Evangelicals hold this, they are the most prolific propagators of the basic Christian faith, in proportion to their size, and the foremost apologists for it against those whom both recognize as cults, as well as cults.

>The notion that some nebulous group in the Catholic church is depending on their works or their Church for salvation is as cynical and mean-spirited as the pagans who insist preachers are skirt-chasing, money grubbing, hypocrits.,

I think thou doth protest too much.

I addition to every formal study i have every come across, is my own experience. I am a former RC, and was born again while still a Catholic, being convicted by God of my lost condition, as despite believing in and praying to God as a child, and raised to be a devout RC, i simply did not know Christ. Rome did not labor to convict me that I was a lost sinner, and in need of personal repentance and faith to be born again, but treated us as if we were Christians due to our baptism (infant sprinkling). But they and pious parents, at least did tell me the facts of the gospel religon, and morality, for which i thank God. I was born again after being convicted of my sins at about age 25, and while i did not know much about the means salvation, i tearfully repented and trusted in the mercy of God in Christ. After that i would go to confession weekly, and wished I could go daily, but earnestly desiring to know how to please God I began listening to a (the one and only) Christian station which had just come on the air in this liberal, Catholic area, and found it so enlightening and my hunger was so great that i could not wait to get out from underneath bridges when I lost the signal while driving (I was a truck driver). I quickly prayed to God affirming that i trusted Christ alone for salvation, and realized changes in heart and life which i did not expect, or could normally expect. Even nature seemed all new to me. Though the radio teachers were from different denominations, from John MacArthur to Chuck Smith, i had no real problem discerning between strictly denominational differences and the real meat of the word.

I was going to the Catholic church, (circa 1978) and wanting to serve God, i became a lector and CCD teacher, and was eager to talk to others in the church about the Bible and what God did in my souls, and to find others who were of like heart, but almost all showed no real interest or fellowship in such. I soon began going to a Bible study taught by a lay women who challenged souls to make a personal decision for Christ, and was being tutored by a evangelical. She was part of the RC charismatic church, and only in those meetings (in the late 70’s early 80’s) did i see some spiritual life in worship of Jesus, emphasis on the Bible, etc., and it was more like the evangelicals. Such local groups were officially more tolerated than were promoted, and they joined the main one with some social gospel peace and justice nun’s commission, and the meetings declined. They tried different things even the lighting, but somethuing had left. I believe God will work where He can, where some faith is, but that does not validate the whole, and you have to go on with Him.

Meanwhile i had been convicted by God to witness for Him, and while i am independent by nature, i was sensitive to rejection, and the things He called me to do required more death to self (and i must do daily do better). Doctrinally, i knew Rome had doctrines and practices that were traditions of men, and that overall its people were lacking the change that happened to me, and while i was attracted to evangel. preaching, yet there was not such local church i knew of in my area that i felt i could trust. So while still teaching CCD, I would seek to speak to other about Christ, though I was pretty basic, and most were Catholics who showed little interest. But finally, after approx. 6 years after being a born again, i did humbly pray that if God wanted me to go to a different church then He would show me. The next day in a small store, i mentioned about believing in God to a friend of my father’s, and he responded quite loudly, that He did and was not ashamed of it. Well, this is not Texas, and part of me wished he was not so loud, but he told me of the church he was going to. I began going, and it was not too much different than the charismatic prayer meetings, but they were not very evangelical (most, despite being better than institutionalized religion, are not). Within two years however, i had left all to serve the Lord full time and by faith (no salary, or set arrangement, or practicing solicitation), serving then in a Baptist church in a city close to where i had lived. And to make a long story short, God has abundantly confirmed my decision, then and after that, and in fact there is no way i live and could do what i do unless i was in His will. And as God keeps His word, I also know His chastisement due to doing my own thing, yet leaving Rome was clearly not one of them.

Back to your contention, I have no personal thing against Catholics, and do not promote any one particular church for salvation, and certainly do not think i have “arrived”, but i have personally encountered thousands of Catholics, offering the simple gospel. And as anyone who has done so can tell, their response, if they will respond, to queries as regarding their preparedness for eternity, is typically that they are good person, and or a Catholic and on that basis they are “all set” and have no testimony of conversion, or evidence of the heart change and fellowship of the Spirit which those who are truly born again do. And this lack is also exist in mainline churches, and to a lesser degree, in “evangelical” ones. But that such, when they do sincerely and humbly personally trust the Lord Jesus to save them, realize dramatic changes in heart and life which correspond to claims of Christ. I tell atheists to interview solid members of evang. churches about what their life was like before and after conversion,and verify such through those who knew them, and they will overall find effects which testify to Christ as the Cause. Fanny Crosby did not write 8,000 hymns because she was just religious.

As for those who contend for Rome, while I am glad that evident basic truths of Scripture are held to, i find it grievous that thy both deny that the data and testimonies testify that Rome overall is not bring souls to be born again, and that they are compelled to defend teachings which do not really rest upon Scripture, but the power of Rome to teach for doctrines the commandments of men.

Yet if Rome did not teach her souls that they (the majority) became Christians via paedobaptism, and effectually and pointedly called for personal repentance and faith,as sinners who have absolutely nothing to merit eternal life by, r escape their just punishment in Hell fire, so that souls experience the new birth with its resultant dramatic changes, then there could be some basic fellowship in the spirit, things such as clerical celibacy, or even trasnsubstaitinasti notwithstanding. Praying to Mary however, is more problematic).

However, as in cults, this militates against perpetuating the bureaucracy which makes itself an object of faith for salvation, or being the particular organic entity by which one gains salvation. The church is that which is the product of faith, as Israel was, but being spiritual it is not relegated to one formal organic expression, while though the church is needed for growth and propagation of the faith, souls can be saved anywhere, even in a desert. Praise the Lord.

>surrounding oneself exclusively with those who agree with your particular interpretation of scripture?<

Actually this is most typically manifest among Catholics, who rarely seek spiritual fellowship outside their fold, while even going to Mass is usually less than weekly, while Evangelicals manifest a vast degree of inter varsity fellowship, from conferences to concerts, to pray meetings (not enough), to supporting multiple ministry outside their denominations, including missionary work, as well as Evang. entities such as Salem Radio, the largest Christian broadcaster in the US which carries teachers from multiple evangelical denominations (as well as a few RC programs). And which wide appeal and support is not due to allegiance to a central earthly head, but is a phenomenon which, in its essence is due to the supernatural change that results from the new birth, while those without have little to no real interest in teaching from various but evangelical Bible sources. But which quality is on the decline, and the coming persecution will work to purify it.


77 posted on 12/12/2009 1:08:26 PM PST by daniel1212 (Hear the word of the gospel, and believe", (Acts 15:7) + flee from those who hold another as supreme)
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