Posted on 11/03/2009 9:42:30 AM PST by GonzoII
Why be so crude to Jesus' mother?
>>He is claiming that if Mary was a perpetual virgin she bore no “marital relationship” fruit.
He did not say that. He said this:
I would relate a virgin wife to a fig tree that doesn’t bear fruit.<<
Precisely my point. I think our disconnect is that you are interpreting it to be discussing her being a virgin before the birth of Christ. I am interpreting it to cover all those years following His birth. And the “fruit” I interpret it to be discussing is the sexual relationship between her and her husband - not kids.
Did Mary have free will at that time or not?
Rape of the Holy Spirit? You are way off the deep end.
Not at all. The Holy Spirit either proceeded with her consent or without it.
I say it was consensual, you are saying it was nonconsensual.
I am not denying free will...
Good.
...- but God had and has a plan.
And she consented to His plan for her: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word."
Yes. I believe it makes absolute sense because God entering his creation demonstrated His absolute humility.
Sorry but that is not Biblical.
>>Why be so crude to Jesus’ mother?<<
I’m not. I’m talking about the concept of making reasonable assumptions. One can argue that my grandfather did not drive his tractor, but for crying out loud, don’t expect me to take you seriously.
” So, the song Camptown Races is a slur against my female cousin?”
Could be male or female. “Ben-Dohd-dah” or “Bat-Dohd-dah”
I am no ancient linguist, but I’ve spoken Hebrew my entire life.
Just read your Bible; it contains pages and pages and pages of geneologies, germane to tribal inheritance, position, who is and who is not “Jewish,” Temple practice, and the Messianic Line.
The idea that there is no Hebrew word for “cousin” is silly.
He referred to Mary, a virgin wife, as a fig tree that doesn’t bear fruit.
It could not be more plain...or more false.
You are being crude. What seems to happen in these discussions is that some, not all, find is somehow funny to insult the mother of the Lord. I don’t get it.
>>Sorry but that is not Biblical.<<
Technically, whenever one says “God would have...” it is not biblical.
OTOH, I do not see the relevance of the issue at all.
I think Mary’s virginity BEFORE the birth of Christ is a CRITICAL tenet of Christianity. Whether or not she was a virgin afterward is completely and utterly irrelevant. I’m kind of surprised so many make a big deal about it. It is one of those “me thinks thou doth protest too much” things.
>>It could not be more plain...or more false.<<
It is about context.
And yet you are.
Read my post on obedience versus consent.
She was obedient to God’s will - God’s plan.
There is a difference and you folks keep trying to make her something she is not. She was, in the end, just a woman.
Who chose who - Mary or God?
Which one has the power to answer prayer?
Which one is God?
Answers, in order, God, God, and God.
So why the infatuation with her?
>>You are being crude. What seems to happen in these discussions is that some, not all, find is somehow funny to insult the mother of the Lord. I don’t get it.<<
I sincerely apologize. That was in no way my intent. My “root” issue of my comment was not about Mary. It was about the concept of people making unreasonable assumptions and I was trying to come up with a “real world” analogy - or, parable.
You have not answered the question as to the logic of the argument. Why did Mary ask how it would happen if she was already betrothed?
No problem.
God chose Mary for His plan and Mary consented to His plan.
So why the infatuation with her?
What a strange choice of words, infatuation.
>>And yet you are.<<
I was literally waiting for that response.
And no, I am not. I am not trying to support a claim. I’m enjoying arguing this as much as I enjoy arguing MMGW and evolution. I love arguing issues where others have made strong statements based on no proof or pet beliefs.
My whole attitude is along the lines of “Who told you that and why did you believe them?” I love getting to the root of such issues.
IOW, my position has nothing whatsoever to do with Mary being a virgin after Jesus’ birth. It is all about why people believe it. It is about them.
God choose Mary and Mary choose God. Free Will.
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