Riding high in the saddle

Triablogue ^ | H

[the_conscience]

This is funny. Beckwith get his skull cap handed to him.

[Lorica]

One of my pet peeves is the intentional overuse of "Rome," "Roman," "Romanist," etc. by Protestant critics of Catholic theology.

The use of "Romanist" is a dead giveaway of anti-Catholic bias. Putting lipstick on it doesn't help. It's still ugly.

[RobbyS]

Er, “Roman Catholic” is a word of English Protestant origin. We have just sort of accepted it as Latter Day Saints have accepted take name “mormon.” Bottom line: It is not official.

[vladimir998]

Actually Beckwith is much better reasoned in his thinking then the moron who responded to his statement.

The simple fact is that I am not Roman. I am Catholic, however. When someone insists on calling me a “Roman Catholic” after I inform him that that is a Protestant term and is not appropriate or accurate, I know the Protestant is clearly a bigot. That assessment has always been borne out by later information too.

What Beckwith is discovering, if he didn’t know it already, is that many Protestant opponants of the Catholic faith are bigots. I did get a few bigots to stop doing this by INSISTING that they call me the “N-word” as well. They were usually dumbstruck when I first insisted on it, but got the point that one bigotry was as bad as another.

[superdad]

“The simple fact is that I am not Roman. I am Catholic, however.”

When I was an Episcopalian, I was Catholic also. We did refer to ourselves as Anglo-Catholics to distinguish ourselves from Roman Catholics. Are you Episcopalian?

[Campion]

"Romanist" is a derogatory term. Most dictionaries identify it as such.

"Roman Catholic" is a term invented originally by Anglicans who were claiming that one could be Catholic without allegiance to the Pope.

The terms "Church of Rome" or "Roman Church" are somewhat suspicious as well. We don't call Southern Baptists "adherents of the Church of Nashville," nor do we call members of the PCA "adherents of the Church of Lawrenceville, Georgia," nor do we call Anglicans "adherents of the Cantabridgian Church". But I have been called "an adherent of the Church of Rome" more than once by Anglicans.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“When I was an Episcopalian, I was Catholic also.”

I’m not trying to offend you, but I don’t see how that is possible. Episcopalianism is not Catholic or catholic.

“We did refer to ourselves as Anglo-Catholics to distinguish ourselves from Roman Catholics. Are you Episcopalian?”

No, just Catholic.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

This is funny. Beckwith get his skull cap handed to him.

Thanks for the ping. Great article. And VERY appropriate to our discussions.

Why Beckwith imagines this usage to be ignorant, or bigoted is puzzling. It’s even more puzzling when you consider the fact that he himself entitled his book “Return to Rome.”

lol. Rome double-speak.

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." -- James 1:8

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I always have to ask myself, are they so proud of themselves because they're Catholic, or are they Catholic because they're so proud of themselves?

I think it's primarily the latter.

[Alex Murphy]

I’m struck by how often Catholic converts and reverts exhibit this overweening pride. Why do so many of them act like self-important prigs? I always have to ask myself, are they so proud of themselves because they're Catholic, or are they Catholic because they're so proud of themselves?

....Beckwith is not a church historian or licensed Catholic theologian. He’s not some great authority on Tridentine theology. He’s just a layman–like you and me. A word of advice to Beckwith: Don’t get on your high horse when you ride a Shetland pony.

Ping for later

[the_conscience]

v) I can’t help noticing that the church of Rome only discovered the virtues of courtesy and charity rather late in the day. If, for example, you read the text of Exsurge Domine (available online), the language and countermeasures proposed by Pope Leo X to describe and suppress the nascent Protestant movement doesn’t strike me as overly charitable or courteous.

I also can’t help but notice that this discovery seems to time with the church of Rome’s loss of temporal power. And therein lies a moral: the true test of charity is not to be charitable when you have to be, but to be charitable when you don’t have to be.

Once his denomination no longer had state sponsorship to back its brass knuckle policies, then it suddenly discovered the virtues of tolerance. Funny how those in power are quick to advocate tolerance the moment they fall from power. But I’m sure that’s purely coincidental.

Rome at her heights ruled with a Rahm Immanuel style of means justifying ends but once the West broke free of her grip Rome had no real power and eventually turned to existentialism which was manifested in Vatican II. Now she and her congregants display an Ophrahesque internalism seemingly always a victim with their self-esteem in need of repair.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Yes, they've turned from the "existentialism of Vatican II" with a fury and now find themselves moving swiftly towards the fascism that is inherent within its top-down ranks as it follows a "you-know-what" pope who tells us we all must submit to a "global authority" on earth who will manage our lives, our faith, our families, our finances, our defense and our conscience.

lol. No thanks.

[the_conscience]

I’m sure Rome would love to return to her role of informing Kings and Tyrants and why she is promoting one world government.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Rome at her heights...”

When exactly? Give me a century at least.

“...ruled with a Rahm Immanuel style of means justifying ends...”

Define “ruled”.

“...but once the West broke free of her grip Rome had no real power and eventually turned to existentialism which was manifested in Vatican II.”

What you just said makes absolutely no sense.

“Now she and her congregants display an Ophrahesque internalism seemingly always a victim with their self-esteem in need of repair.”

I have no idea of what you’re babbling about. Have you read any of the encyclicals of either of the last two popes?

[vladimir998]

So you and the_conscience disagree. Interesting.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

So you and the_conscience disagree. Interesting.

I don't see where we disagree.

[vladimir998]

the_conscience, although he used the word “Now” in the subsequent sentence wrote this:

“...eventually turned to existentialism which was manifested in Vatican II.”

You, however, wrote:

“Yes, they’ve turned from the “existentialism of Vatican II” with a fury and now find themselves moving swiftly towards the fascism...”

So, you believe the Church is headed toward facism and away from the_conscience’s idea of “existentialism of Vatican II”.

Although the_conscience used the word “Now” which might hint at a change, he gave no attestation of it. Thus, you believe one thing and he believes another - if your words can be relied on for meaning.

[the_conscience]

Nope, no disagreement. We both see how Ratzy is trying to set up for a one world government.

[HarleyD]

I am a member of a parish that is in the Latin Rite, and thus, I am, in that sense, "Roman" Catholic. But if, let's say, my wife and I moved to Austin and we became members of Our Lady's Maronite Church, we would still be Catholic, in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but not technically "Roman" Catholic. We would be Maronite Catholic.

Sounds like they're a Catholic denomination. ;O)