Posted on 10/26/2009 9:22:24 PM PDT by DouglasKC
The teaching or doctrine being discussed by John:
2Jn 1:5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
2Jn 1:11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
I would agree whole heartedly that the mark of a Christian is loving others and walking in the commandments of God. I also know, believe and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and is my messiah.
Whether you believe that is entirely up to you. But please be careful with the scripture you use to justify your position.
Thank you and likewise Quester.
It's also not scriptural to suggest that anyone besides Christ already has eternal life: Would John think so ... ? 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I think John would think so...
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Verse 11 seems to be saying that out eternal life is in the son. I think it's referring to God's spirit, the spirit of Christ, that lives in Christians. With that understanding I would defer to John Gill's commentary on verse 13 which sums up my view:
"that ye may know that ye have eternal life; that there is such a thing as eternal life; that this is in Christ; that believers have it in him, and the beginning of it in themselves; and that they have a right unto it, and meetness for it, and shall certainly enjoy it; the knowledge of which is had by faith, under the testimony of the Spirit of God, and particularly what is above written concerning eternal life, being a free grace gift of God; and this being in Christ, and the assurance of it, that such who have him, or believe in him, have that which might serve to communicate, cultivate, and increase such knowledge: "
The specific passage deals with those who deny Jesus came in the flesh. That was the specific heresy in vogue at the time. It seems proper to me to include it as a general direction on how to handle those who deny the teaching of Christ, which would include “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
He, not it. And the Holy Spirit is God:
“Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...You have not lied to men but to God.” - Acts 5
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...” - Matt 28
In 2 John 5, he is pointing out that while we are to love one another, it does NOT mean extending fellowship to deceivers - see the rest of 2 John.
Well....that's nice of you to admit that.....cause it's true!
Douglas is a cultist but a Catholic is not. Do I have that correct?
One the one hand we have a Christian (Douglas) who belongs to an organization that is governed by an elected council of men. Then we have another organization that is governed by one man....who claims infallibility....and direct apostolic descent from Peter (rolling my eyes) of which many were not Christians (freely admitted), but yet you call their followers "Brothers in Christ."
One organization is Biblically grounded (scripture only) and the other grounded mainly in tradition. Tradition will trump scripture every time.......because they say so! But the tradition group and their "BIG KAHUNA" is not a cult. LOL
The group Douglas belongs to continues to honor the Sabbath and the Feast Days of [Leviticus 23] as scripture directs. The "Roman Group" has trash canned these observances (because they say they can) and have changed God's Holy day of worship.....to Sunday and established many other "Feast" days.....ignoring the one's established by God. I might add....they've done this with absolutely no scriptural authority.....which they freely admit.
Douglas and his congregation do not worship a non Biblical "Trinity....precisely because it's non Biblical. On the other the Church of Rome has incorporated this pagan practice into it's worship and has built an entirely new religion from it which in no way resembles the Church of the first century. But yet....Douglas is called a cultist and the Trinitarians and their non biblical traditions are not. This is laughable!
From what I can ascertain, Douglas and his group worship pretty much the way the Apostles did. On the other hand it would appear that your theology has been filtered through Catholicism, tweaked by Martin Luther and....depending on which confession you belong to, probably retains much of the false doctrine from Nicaea. Originally.... from here is where you all began your journey.....all 5000 of your Martin Luther denominations and your Catholic brethren. But.....you're not cultic (smirking).
For a Catholic/Protestant to say they cannot be a cultist is like a minority saying they cannot be a racist. It means nothing.....it's drivel!
We are NOT brothers in Christ. And John has told us what to do: "do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works"
This identifies you for what you are.
Thank you for your response.
I think that's there's a much a stronger case biblically to say that the Godhead in heaven consists of the father and the son and the holy spirit is their presence in our world.
For example:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
There is no mention of another person, or entity, called the holy spirit.
This is consistent with old testament scripture:
Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
Again, ancient of days = the father, and son of man is Christ. But no entity on the holy spirit.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
A throne for the father and a throne for the son, but there is no entity called the holy spirit that sits on a throne.
Heb 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Again. There is example after example of this throughout scripture.
Then there's the greetings of Paul in his letters:
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In virtually all of his greetings Paul neglects to ascribe deity to the holy spirit as a separate person to send greetings from. This indicates that he didn't believe it.
One more proof:
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God created man in his image, an image of "two". “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...You have not lied to men but to God.” - Acts 5
This is consistent with my belief that the holy spirit is the presence of the father and/or the son in our world. It is the power/presence/finger of God in our reality.
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...” - Matt 28
This is a description of a baptismal formula:
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
How did the first disciples understand this?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
It's a forumula. We're baptized in the name of Christ and we're baptized in the holy spirit.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized
Act 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
So again, Matthew 28:19 is a baptismal formula, not a statement of a trinity Godhead and this is born out by the words and action of the first disciples in scripture.
I’m way behind on posts to a variety of folks, so I’ll limit it to this:
You say “that the Godhead in heaven consists of the father and the son and the holy spirit is their presence in our world.”
If the Holy Spirit was an it, your case would be better. But He is He, and yet not God the Father or Jesus, since Jesus said, “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.”
and, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
Notice it isn’t Jesus, since He is sent in Jesus name (a phrase meaning to come to do what Jesus would do if Jesus was here), and He isn’t God the Father, since the Father will send Him.
Hence a third person, who is also God.
Oh yes, please be careful with the scriptures you use to justify your position. The Apostle John would disagree with your application here, since John believed that Jesus was God, Second Person of the Trinity - and not some other 'person' in a family called 'God'.
Following His commandments are an outflow of our love towards Him, not a requirement for eventual salvation as taught by ucg/armstrongism.
John specifically was specifically refuting gnosticism by stating Jesus came in the flesh - more contextural understanding. John also believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected, HIS body, not some other 'body'.
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12.32) - Blasphemy against the Spirit was a greater crime than blasphemy against the Son of God! So a 'power/presence' is given higher honor than Jesus.
The Spirit occurs in scripture-with FULL EQUALITY of status with the Father and the Son. Matt 28.19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
I Cor 12.4: There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
I Pet 1.2: who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but is found in scripture with full personality, equal with God, third Person of the Trinity.
I did say that, but I also used a lot of scripture to bolster my case.
If the Holy Spirit was an it, your case would be better. But He is He, and yet not God the Father or Jesus, since Jesus said, “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.”
The holy spirit is also the spirit of Christ and he (jesus) did have to return to his position in the Godhead to send forth his spirit.
As far as "he" and "it" these are english translations of greek gender identification.
In most cases the proper, grammatical way to translate a reference to the holy spirit is "it" because in greek it's a neuter term.
and, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
In this verse, the term "helper" is parakletos which in greek is male gender word...but that doesn't always mean that it's referring to a male of a species. Greek, like French, refers to non-human and non-animal objects as male, female or neuter. It has little or no bearing on the actual "sex".
Translators, influenced by the belief that the holy spirit IS a "he" will translate a gender neutral term as "he."
Here's a good lesson about that. The trinity doctrine was developed over time by the Catholic church. After the reformation, protestant scholars most referred to the holy spirit correctly by using the gender neutral "it".
For example, Romans 8:16 is translated in various ways by different translators:
(ACV) The Spirit itself testifies with our spirit, that we are children of God.
(ASV) The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
(BBE) The Spirit is witness with our spirit that we are children of God:
(CEV) God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children.
(CJB) The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God;
(DRB) For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God.
(EVID) The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(ECB) The self-same Spirit co-witnesses with our spirit, that we are the children of Elohim:
(Geneva) The same Spirit beareth witnesse with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
(GNB) God's Spirit joins himself to our spirits to declare that we are God's children.
(GW) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
(ISV) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
(KJV) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(LITV) The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.
(MRC) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(MKJV) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
(NET) The Spirit himself bears witness to21 our spirit that we are God's children.
(NSB) The Spirit itself (Greek:autos ho pneuma) (itself the Spirit) bears witness with our spirit (mind and heart), that we are children of God.
(NKJV) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(RV) The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
It should be evident, perhaps with more study, that the decision to translate the holy spirit as "it" or "he" is almost entirely dependent upon the belief of the translator.
I’ll trust the translators of versions like the NASB and ESV. Greek is precise, but it takes some skill to do it right. The folks who did versions like the NASB & ESV had great concern for accuracy, and were not beginners looking at lexicons.
“13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” - John 16
Lots of ‘he’ in that passage...
As for John 14:26:
“He (ekeinov).
Emphatic demonstrative pronoun and masculine like paraklhtov.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=014&verse=026
New King James: Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Note that the NKJ says the holy spirit is a "whom".
From your link:
"Whom (o).Grammatical neuter, but "whom" is correct translation."
Why, if they they says it's grammatically correct to say "which" do they translate it "whom"?
Translator bias, plain and simple.
But that matters little because when the holy spirit is present in believers it IS Jesus, or God. So it makes little difference whether you refer to it as "he" or "it".
For example....if I live in on one side of a wall and you live on another and I poke my hand through the wall and knock over your lamp, you would rightly say that it was me knocking over the lamp. However it's just as correct to say that it was my power and my strength that knocked over the lamp. Either way my arm poking through isn't a different person. It was me.
In the same way God "pokes" through in the form of his holy spirit. We know it's him poking through. But it's not a different person up there in the Godhead as I've shown from multiple scripture examples.
While the greek is neuter, masculine pronouns are also linked to it.
John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16.7: But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16.8: When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
John 16.13: But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
John 16.14: He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
Eph 1.13,14: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance
The discerning reader will note these are masculine pronouns.
Translators, influenced by the belief that the holy spirit IS a "he" will translate a gender neutral term as "he."
Again, wrong because you are dealing with english and not the underlying Greek. ekeinos is used in the above passages and is a masculine pronoun - period. No influenced 'translation' necessary. IF the writer was refering to the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force, they would have used the neuter ekeino, but they didn't.
Furthermore the phrase in John 14:26 “Ho de parakletos” (the Comforter ) which is a masculine noun and the subject of the sentence. AGAIN ekeinos is a masculine singular agreed with the subject “Ho de parakletos”. Once again, it is not the doctrine of the translator, but the actual greek text itself that drives it.
It should be evident, perhaps with more study, that the decision to translate the holy spirit as "it" or "he" is almost entirely dependent upon the belief of the translator.
As evidenced by the specific masculine pronouns used in the above verses, referring to the Holy Spirit as a Person and not an ambiguous force is consistent and not doctrinally derived. (PS, even non trintiarian biblical scholars such as Thayer support this 'translation')
“But that matters little because when the holy spirit is present in believers it IS Jesus, or God.”
Wrong. The Holy Spirit is He, not it. Not Jesus poking thru a hole, but He the Holy Spirit is in us. You change the HE to IT, trying to slip in the heresy. He is sent, but is not Jesus, and is not the Father - and He is a person.
That is clear from multiple passages. Denying is not showing.
For example, you use Genesis, where God makes man in His image, and then say he made 2 sexes, so therefor God is two persons. Of course, anyone reading it would probably interpret it as making man with a will, capable of doing good or evil. They wouldn’t interpret it to mean two persons, unless you are now suggesting Jesus is a woman...God the Daughter!
You ignore the passage where we are to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and use one phrase from Peter in Acts - a summary of what was a lengthy sermon - to negate any responsibility for Matthew 28.
I consider this dishonest, but it is expected from a cult member.
Sorry, I'm through with you. You clearly can't have a conversation without making it personal and attempting to impugn motive and character. God bless and I pray you find peace.
I agree with a caveat...you bring up a point about milk and meat that I haven't studied that closely. But it sounds right.
The milk of the Word is Salvation. Who what where why when get to the meat of the Word. The first 6 chapters of Genesis lays out the foundation upon which those 5 questions have the answers planted throughout the Word. Say like it was a fig grove where the Garden Party took place and Christ said 'Learn the parable of the fig tree'. One need know the horticulture of the fig tree to understand the parable. That is but one example.
Soul sleep is neither milk or meat. When was Christ resurrected? And if the soul is sleeping how could Lazarus be seen in Abraham's bosom?
One of the things listed as foundational was "resurrection". The resurrection of Christ was because he was the first of the harvest, the first fruit. To stay with harvest analogy not all crops ripen at the same time. There's an order of harvest.
Yes "resurrection" is foundational. And it is through Christ, Emmanuel, or God with us that we are given the insight as to when 'life' in a flesh body begins, at conception.
The notion that Christ was a harvest is not an analogy that fits with what is Written about who plants seed, and who is the pruner and or Harvester. Christ was in the Garden symbolized by the 'tree of life'
I think that the story of Lazarus wasn't a literal description of heaven and hell, but a parable to show the relationship and attitude that Pharisees (the rich man) Luk 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. had to the gentiles (Lazarus). It was a warning to not be smug about their place and position. If it WERE a literal description of heaven and hell our reward is to lay in Abrahams bosom. It never mentions God or Christ as being in the afterlife. It was a warning using terms and ideas that non-believing jews would recognize.
There is no doubt that Christ was using the Pharisees religious language in concerning the dead. Lazarus comes from the Hebrew Eleazar, name of one of Aaron's son a priest. As well as the phrase Abraham's bosom.
The meat of what Christ gave is found in Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence'. etc.
Peter says there are three different heaven/earth ages and those who return to the Maker at the death of their flesh are in spirit bodies separated by a 'gulf' awaiting the end of this flesh age. Abraham is one of those named to be in paradise which would be 'heaven' as opposed to hell which can mean different things from a smoldering dump to the grave or as this rich man not because of the fact he was rich but because of how he got rich could see across that gulf where he could not go to received Christ - the living water.
In John 3 Christ told Nicodemus what is required just to ‘see’ the kingdom of God. And in verse 10 Christ makes clear that what he was telling Nicodemus was not new as he asks him, “Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things. Then Christ plainly explains what he is saying in verse 13... And no man hath ascended up to heave, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of Man Which is in heaven.
I'm not quite sure of the point you're making...but these verses affirm that you have to be begotten of the spirit in order to be resurrected with an eternal, spiritual body because that's the only way you can inherit the kingdom.
The point is that at conception the soul/spirit is placed in flesh, ever heard the expression before childbirth, my 'water' broke? Well that is the water that Christ is referencing that is required to see the kingdom. It is not about entering the kingdom but to 'see' it. And the book of Jude describes those who refused and they along with Satan are the only ones today named and numbered that will be destroyed. That judgment was made before this flesh age, and why there is a flesh age to give opportunity to those who would a pass through this age.
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen (election) us in Him *before* the foundation of the world, (actually this is a verb = casting down, overthrow) that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Some have already been justified and are called the 'elect' because of what they did when Satan rebelled, and Paul given what he was want to do in his own 'free will' was literally touched to perform the duty of writing to us the majority of the New Testament. Which is why he could give us what he calls the meat of the Word. But even those of the 'elect' must pass through this flesh age as God says he is not a respecter of persons.
Paul says in Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. Do you think the devil is sleeping, and will get a second bite at the proverbial apple?
Scripturally death is the FINAL enemy: 1Cr 15:24 Then [comes] the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1Cr 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death.
But before this happens the pretender is going to be allowed to tempt us just as he tempted Christ.
In verse 24, Paul is saying that Christ will return and put all earthly governments under him. ALL rule. ALL authority. ALL power is ended. No more human government, but a government of God. That's the gospel of the kingdom.
The Heavenly Father is in control and even right now, and He sent His holy prophets to pen what we could expect 'need be'. Do you think as others were predestined to be upon this earth at appointed times that that would not even be taking place in this generation. And yet the 'war' is not about flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And we are told what to arm ourselves with to be strong in the Lord and to withstand in the evil day.
See Solomon penned in Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. And it was obvious that Nicodemus was not familiar with this teaching else he would have understood what Christ was saying that Unless one be born from above they would not see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemeus would have been VERY familiar with Ecclesiastes 12:7 but he wouldn't have interpreted it the same way.
But of course not and neither do the majority even this day. Which is why Christ taught us about where we come from and what is required for any to see the kingdom of God and that it was not a new teaching. Ecc 1:9-11
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. This of course is referring to: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The breath of life, whatever constitutes it, will return to God. But this isn't a conscious part of our bodies. Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do [it] with your might; for [there is] no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. I think you're right that this "breath of life" is a component of man that gives us our intellect and what sets us apart from being animals. The spirit is the intellect of the soul and it was the ‘spirits’ that Christ offered salvation to in Peter all the way back to the beginning. NOT demons. I'm not sure what you mean...can you clarify? Thanks in advance for your response....
The soul is the body in spirit that looks as does the flesh physical body, and the spirit is the intellect or gray matter that receives and sends communication. Flesh is held by gravity, but gravity does not have the same hold on the spiritual body. As was demonstrated by Christ going through that wall. Both existed but we in flesh do not see literally that spiritual dimension unless there is divine showing. Both Moses and Elijah were recognized in their spiritual bodies upon the mount of transfiguration. Flesh is temporal and is of no future use once it dies.
The Heavenly Father did not send God with us, Emmanuel, foretell of His coming, even as to what would be said upon the cross (Psalms 22) and not offer to all those who came before us salvation first. Luke 20:38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
Indeed, even after being shown that the actual greek is masculine in reference to the Holy Spirit. Found this listing on the Deity of the Holy Spirit here.
Introduction
In this section, I intend to examine the NT data relative to the deity of Holy Spirit-- accepting the conclusion from the previous piece on the Personality of the Spirit that the Spirit is a personal Agent, distinct from the Father and the Son.
The approach I will take here is to note the NT data that ONLY makes sense if the Holy Spirit were indeed 'fully God'.
Fortunately (at least for the length of this document, that is!), the DIFFICULTY we had in distinguishing the Spirit from the Father will constitute an EASE here. That is, if the Spirit is SO CLOSELY united with the Father, that it is sometimes difficult to perceive their respective individuality, then that SAME CLOSENESS will be a formidable argument for the deity of the Spirit. In other words, "Where the Holy Spirit is, there God is." (We will deal with the issue of "mediation vs manifestation" in the Pushbacks piece subsequently.)
Nevertheless, there is ample data in the NT to support the ascription of deity to the gracious Individual we know as the Holy Spirit.
Let's look at the data/arguments.
1. He is explicitly called God.
o Acts 5.3ff :Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
NOTICE that the Holy Spirit is explicitly identified as 'God'.
o I Cor 3:16 (Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?) WITH I Cor 6.19 (Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?). AND 2 Cor 6.16 (For we are the temple of the living God.).
o 2 Cor 3.17,18: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
NOTICE that this passage identifies the OT Lord (of Moses' time) with the Holy Spirit of Paul's time.
2. His extremely intimate link with the inner life of God the Father CAN ONLY be explained by His being a member of the Godhead.
o Romans 5.5: And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.--NOTICE: The Holy Spirit is the "transport" of the very inner love of the Father!
o I Cor 2.10-11: but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.--NOTICE: the incredibly close link between the Spirit and God the Father--"deep things", the inner thoughts.
o Roman 8.27: And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.--NOTICE: the intimacy of the Father's knowledge of the mind of the Spirit.
o Eph 2.22: And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.--NOTICE: God will actually 'live' in the Person of the Holy Spirit! This is a unity of life that we know almost nothing about on earth!
3. Blasphemy against the Spirit was a greater crime than blasphemy against the Son of God!
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12.32)
4. The Holy Spirit is identified as the YHWH of the OT.
o Exodus 17.7 ( And he called the place Massah and Meribah because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?") WITH Heb 3.7-9 ( So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.) and Is 63.10 ( Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.)
o 2 Sam 23.1ff (These are the last words of David: "The oracle of David son of Jesse, the oracle of the man exalted by the Most High, the man anointed by the God of Jacob, Israel's singer of songs: 2 "The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue. 3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,) with Is 6.9 ( He said, "Go and tell this people: "`Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.') and Acts 28.25 ( They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 "`Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.").
o Gen 18.10,14 ( Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."..... Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.") with Gen 21.1 ( Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised.) with Romans 4.20-21 ( Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.) and THEN Gal 4.29 ( 29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit).
5. The Spirit occurs in the nomina sacra of the early church manuscripts.
This refers to the scribal practice of abbreviating divine names/titles (generally considered to be after the model of the tetragrammaton "YHWH") cf. MTNT3:261; COMFORT:47-48; TRKW:13-14. Metzger defined them as "divine names written in contracted form with a supralinear line". Although the practice is common in the earliest of NT fragments, it only occasionally occurs in pre-NT times. In the LXX for example, its usage is sporadic--sometimes "kurios" (Gr. for "YHWH") is NOT abbreviated, sometimes it is replaces by a old-style Hebrew "YHWH", sometimes the "YHWH" is vocalized with Greek vowels! (as in 4QLxxLev-b).
The only words in the early documents that are abbreviated are DIVINE names and titles:
1. Jesus
2. Lord
3. Christ
4. God
5. Spirit
6. Father
[In later documents, the other titles of Christ were added--e.g., David, Savior.]
The premier study of this phenomena was by Colin Roberts (Manuscript, Society and Belief in Early Christian Egypt, London: 1979), who held that this system probably originated in Jerusalem before 70 ad. (due the high "Name" theological orientation of that church).
The significance of this to our study should be obvious--the use of nomina sacra tips us off to which names were taken to refer to DEITY! And "Spirit" was one of those names (as was Christ). This indicates an early and systematic 'high view' of the Holy Spirit--specifically, that He was worthy of divine status.
It is also important to note that ONLY references to the HOLY SPIRIT were so abbreviated; refs to our spirits or angelic spirits were NOT.
6. The Spirit occurs in important early church texts-with FULL EQUALITY of status with the Father and the Son.
o Matt 28.19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
o 2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
o I Cor 12.4: There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
o I Pet 1.2: who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
SUMMARY: Although there is much less data about the Spirit than about Christ, and although the deity of the Spirit was a virtual 'given' in the NT period (due to the close association of the Father and the Spirit), there are nonetheless strong evidences and arguments that illustrate the pervasive belief in the deity of the Spirit. Without the slightest indication of defensiveness, the NT writers call the Spirit "God", ascribe acts/words of the OT YHWH to Him, describe the intimate relationship of the two (with cognitive aspects), and live their church praxis in liturgical statements and creedal statements that put the Father, Son, and Spirit on a par. The awesome consequences of sins against this One were demonstrated in the 'greater blasphemy' passage of Jesus and in the sudden judgment on the couple who lied against God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5). And, when it came time to pass on the written records of the gracious and salvific acts of the Godhead, the Spirit was abbreviated in the documents--along with the other Divine Agents of the redemptive drama. Indeed, the NT witness to the Spirit is one of highest honor--'true God of true God'.
Man-made Tradition impugns the Holy Word of G-d.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiachYour argument is not with me but is with the Holy Word of G-d.
Consider that I have the Jewish Messiah,
Yah'shua as my lawyer before YHvH.
Yah'shua is the Word of G-d. (see John 1)Your lawyer is the Roman "church"
Have an excellent journey on the wide road of life.
Your citations are derivative.
“Your argument is not with me but is with the Holy Word of G-d.”
My argument is with your specific claims not the Holy Word
of God. If you could point to specific verses in the
New Testament that demonstrate that what you claim is
correct, you would have. But you did not. Maybe you
were too busy, but you can still do it now.
“Consider that I have the Jewish Messiah,
Yah’shua as my lawyer before YHvH.
Yah’shua is the Word of G-d. (see John 1)”
Actually, ALL Christians have Jesus Christ as Advocate
and Savior - not the Jewish Messiah, thought He is
indeed both.
Of course Jesus is the Word of God. I’m not sure why
you added that.
“Your lawyer is the Roman “church””
That’s just plain nuts. It is impossible to give
a rational answer to an irrational statement. Perhaps
if you elaborated, it would make sense.
“Have an excellent journey on the wide road of life.”
Is that some kind of comment that questions
my salvation? I am not any more interested in the
“wide way” than you (I assume).
The bottom line is that you came on this thread
and made claims you have not backed up with a
single verse. Why not?
If your claim that Christians should celebrate the
Jewish feasts was true, you could easily point to
a command in the New Testament. You have not done
so yet. Instead, you (apparently) are questioning
my salvation when I point out you offer no proof
for your claims.
If you can show me in the New Testament that Christians
are commanded to carry on the Jewish Feast days,
great! I’m open to seeing anything from God’s Word.
Now, you can believe whatever you like. I’m very
happy you have come to Christ. But when you imply
that all Christians are wrong and offer no proof
of that claim, it must be dismissed out of hand.
Blessings to you,
ampu
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.