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To: Mr Rogers
The specific passage deals with those who deny Jesus came in the flesh. That was the specific heresy in vogue at the time. It seems proper to me to include it as a general direction on how to handle those who deny the teaching of Christ, which would include “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” He, not it. And the Holy Spirit is God:

Thank you for your response.

I think that's there's a much a stronger case biblically to say that the Godhead in heaven consists of the father and the son and the holy spirit is their presence in our world.

For example:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

There is no mention of another person, or entity, called the holy spirit.

This is consistent with old testament scripture:

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Again, ancient of days = the father, and son of man is Christ. But no entity on the holy spirit.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

A throne for the father and a throne for the son, but there is no entity called the holy spirit that sits on a throne.

Heb 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Again. There is example after example of this throughout scripture.

Then there's the greetings of Paul in his letters:

1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In virtually all of his greetings Paul neglects to ascribe deity to the holy spirit as a separate person to send greetings from. This indicates that he didn't believe it.

One more proof:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God created man in his image, an image of "two". “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...You have not lied to men but to God.” - Acts 5

This is consistent with my belief that the holy spirit is the presence of the father and/or the son in our world. It is the power/presence/finger of God in our reality.

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...” - Matt 28

This is a description of a baptismal formula:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

How did the first disciples understand this?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It's a forumula. We're baptized in the name of Christ and we're baptized in the holy spirit.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized

Act 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

So again, Matthew 28:19 is a baptismal formula, not a statement of a trinity Godhead and this is born out by the words and action of the first disciples in scripture.

106 posted on 11/02/2009 5:55:04 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

I’m way behind on posts to a variety of folks, so I’ll limit it to this:

You say “that the Godhead in heaven consists of the father and the son and the holy spirit is their presence in our world.”

If the Holy Spirit was an it, your case would be better. But He is He, and yet not God the Father or Jesus, since Jesus said, “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.”

and, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

Notice it isn’t Jesus, since He is sent in Jesus name (a phrase meaning to come to do what Jesus would do if Jesus was here), and He isn’t God the Father, since the Father will send Him.

Hence a third person, who is also God.


107 posted on 11/02/2009 6:07:26 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: DouglasKC; Mr Rogers
RE the Holy Spirit It is interesting how the verses are cherry picked and twisted. In every instance the reference to the Holy Spirit is to a distinct Personage, while the twist is to make it a power/presence. One doesn't lie to a power/presence, but within Acts 9 is specifically called "God"

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12.32) - Blasphemy against the Spirit was a greater crime than blasphemy against the Son of God! So a 'power/presence' is given higher honor than Jesus.

The Spirit occurs in scripture-with FULL EQUALITY of status with the Father and the Son. Matt 28.19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
I Cor 12.4: There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
I Pet 1.2: who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but is found in scripture with full personality, equal with God, third Person of the Trinity.

109 posted on 11/02/2009 6:36:47 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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