Reader Advocate: Two LDS stories light up the switchboard

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | Oct. 16, 2009

[Colofornian]

Two stories published in The Salt Lake Tribune this week, as a British friend of mine would say, put the cat among the pigeons.

The first story reported that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints baptized a recently canonized Roman Catholic saint by proxy and sealed him to a wife for eternity.

"Father Damien, the Roman Catholic priest who cared for lepers in Hawaii in the 19th century, apparently is a saint twice over," Kristen Moulton wrote. " ... There is no evidence Damien ever married, which would have been a violation of his vow of celibacy."

In addition to phone calls and e-mails that story drew almost 900 comments in our online edition. Many did not believe it was a legitimate news story.

Managing Editor for News and Business Terry Orme explained:

"Our decisions on whether or not to report on LDS Church proxy baptisms are handled the same way we handle all news decisions. We ask: Is this news? And: Is this something our readers should know?

"It is safe to say a proxy baptism and sealing of a Catholic saint to a wife is a story Salt Lake Tribune readers would want to read."

The second story -- which drew more than 1,800 comments -- was about a talk that LDS apostle Dallin H. Oaks gave in Rexburg, Idaho, where he compared the backlash against Mormons after the passage of California's Proposition 8 (limiting marriage to heterosexual couples only) to how blacks were treated during the civil rights battle in the United States.

The clamor on this story was even greater. Why would we cover that? Because it is news in a state where local, county and state governments have so many LDS members. Those governmental bodies are influenced by what LDS general authorities say and do.

Even Oaks understood this:

"I am conscious that I am also speaking to many in other places. In this time of the Internet, what we say in one place is instantly put before a wider audience, including many to whom we do not intend to speak. That complicates my task, so I ask your understanding as I speak to a very diverse audience," he told his college-age listeners.

Many of my college friends fought for civil rights in the South; one was permanently disabled from being thrown from the top of an underpass. I understand what happened to blacks and whites during that struggle.

University of Utah historian Colleen McDannell was quoted in the Tribune story:

"Were four little Mormon girls blown up in the church at Sunday school? Were there burning crosses planted on local bishops' lawns? Were people lynched and their genitals stuffed in their mouths? By comparing these two things, it diminishes the real violence that African-Americans experienced in the ' 60s when they were struggling for equal rights. There is no equivalence between the two."

One reader commented:

"What was Elder Oaks saying? He was saying that people were trying their best to deny African Americans the right to vote and they're doing the same thing to the LDS people today. It's socially and politically acceptable to look down on LDS people today."

It is not acceptable at this newspaper to look down on Mormons, but reporters and editors are expected to do their best to provide readers with the news that affects them, and to do that in a timely manner.

[Colofornian]

Hmmm...re: this feedback to the Trib...now why would Mormons want an article suppressed re: the fact that despite no evidence that this newly "sainted" Roman Catholic priest was ever married, Lds decided to play "matchmaker" and seal this deceased priest to a wife??? (After they baptized him "Mormon")

Of course, this drew a fair amount of discussion on this FReeper thread:
NewestCatholicSaintBaptizedAnd'Sealed'ToWifeInLDSTemple?

As for the second controversy -- that involving a speech by an Lds apostle (Oaks), see these two FR threads:
#1 LDSApostleUnderFireForCivil-RightsAnalogy
#2 ReligiousFreedom

This last FR thread highlights where this Lds apostle was chastizing religious voters who take the beliefs of a candidate into consideration.

[mckenzie7]

Beware! Divide and conquer, that it what the left does, or at least attempts to do.

A ceremony in the LDS temple doesn't affect me whatsoever.

St. Damien is still St. Damien

[Elsie]

 

"I am conscious that I am also speaking to many in other places. In this time of the Internet, what we say in one place is instantly put before a wider audience, including many to whom we do not intend to speak. That complicates my task, so I ask your understanding as I speak to a very diverse audience," he told his college-age listeners.

 

 

 

Them "college-age listeners" get told a LOT of things it seems!

 

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Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

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Timeline...    Subject...

 

0:59            "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16            "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

[Elsie]

 A ceremony in the LDS temple doesn't affect me whatsoever.

 

It 'affects' MORMONs...

 

MORMON

ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY

 

  1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
  2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t!
  3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t!
  4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal!
  5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers!
  6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t!
  7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t.
  8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
  9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. —                           -- You can’t.
12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics --                            -- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t.
18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably                              -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going!
21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where.
22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t.
23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple                            -- all you have is a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy  (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)

 

Revision 46.1

Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.

All rights liable to be abused.

Why can't the RESTORED gospel be found in the Book of MORMON; like Salt Lake City SAYS that it can?

[Colofornian]

Beware! Divide and conquer, that it what the left does, or at least attempts to do.

Does the following 1820s original vision of Joseph Smith, which a later generation of Mormons converted into Lds "scripture," sound like Kum Ba Yah hugging and embracing of Christians?

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt... (Joseph Smith - History, vv. 18-19, Pearl of Great Price)

If that wasn't enough of a scorched earth Smith policy, he then went on to label all Christians and Christian sects/denominations as "apostates." (But that wasn't "divide and conquer" strategy, either, in your eyes, eh?)

He essentially tossed all Christians into one gigantic graveyard, and tried to erect a new religion on top of it. Let's face it, if Smith's "diagnosis" of Christians was wrong, that all didn't commit apostasy, then no need existed for him or his restoration-from-scratch.

A ceremony in the LDS temple doesn't affect me whatsoever.

So if a new religion decides to "institutionalize" something mentioned in the Bible -- say Hosea's marrying of Gomer the Prostitute. (A prostitute, btw, who continued who "cottage industry" post marriage). And they elect to "seal" you to one or more "prostitutes" in the afterlife and make that public, you or your wife wouldn't mind such a "no effect" religious practice?

[xjcsa]

A ceremony in the LDS temple doesn't affect me whatsoever.

Yep.

[xjcsa]

And they elect to "seal" you to one or more "prostitutes" in the afterlife and make that public, you or your wife wouldn't mind such a "no effect" religious practice?

It wouldn't bother me, because they lack the power to do anything to me in the afterlife. They can say they're "sealing" me all they want; that doesn't make it true.

[Larry Lucido]

[Larry Lucido]

Can they seal my driveway? It really needs it.

[xjcsa]

Can they seal my driveway? It really needs it.

Hahaha...they could, but it would just be imaginary anyway.

[GovernmentShrinker]

It’s none of anybody else’s business what Mormons do in their temples. They’re practicing their religious beliefs, and from the viewpoint of someone who doesn’t share those beliefs, the temple ordinances are meaningless. People don’t have a right not to be offended by other people’s religious beliefs and practices. If Christians want to pray for the souls of atheists, I don’t want to hear atheists wailing about how this is offensive to their atheist beliefs. If Mormons want to baptize/endow/seal deceased Jews, Catholic saints, Muslims, Moonies, that’s entirely the Mormons’ business.

[svcw]

Why don't they just baptize everyone who ever lived before and since with one dunk and get it over with.

[Colofornian]

It’s none of anybody else’s business what Mormons do in their temples. They’re practicing their religious beliefs, and from the viewpoint of someone who doesn’t share those beliefs, the temple ordinances are meaningless. People don’t have a right not to be offended by other people’s religious beliefs and practices. If Christians want to pray for the souls of atheists, I don’t want to hear atheists wailing about how this is offensive to their atheist beliefs. If Mormons want to baptize/endow/seal deceased Jews, Catholic saints, Muslims, Moonies, that’s entirely the Mormons’ business [GovernmentShrinker]

It wouldn't bother me, because they lack the power to do anything to me in the afterlife. They can say they're "sealing" me all they want; that doesn't make it true. [xjcsa]

Xjcsa, it’s indeed “bothersome” to me to see people led people astray...to give them false security...to coerce people to spend millions of genealogical hours in pursuit of a worthless cause...to have Mormons everywhere don spiritual superman suits as false "saviors" as they perform empty rituals in their temples...

Why should we care, GovtShrinker? Why is it our business?

Lds believe that "...hell...is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel & have the opportunity to repent & accept ordinances for them that are performed." (True to the Faith, 2004, official Lds publication, p. 81)

Now what's wrong with this statement?
(1) It negates Hebrews 9:27 "For it is appointed for man to die once, and then the judgement"
(2) It creates a false sense of security for earthly man: "Oh, I can repent AFTER I die"
(3) In light of what I said above about millions of genealogical hours being spent -- the vast majority of Dark Ages & before will never have their records found, how can the Lds church turn around and say this is MANDATED for EVERY spirit before they can be judged? Joseph Smith taught that "ALL those who have not had an opportunity of hearing the Gospel, and being administered unto by an inspired man in the flesh, MUST have it hereafter, BEFORE they can be finally judged. (Lds Presidents book on Smith, p. 471)
(4) Lds assume not only can they arrange eternal relationships with God and Jesus Christ post-death, but they can do marital match-making for the deceased. (Someone start the Halloween Morg music): "In the temple, we can perform ALL the ordinances necessary for the exaltation of those who have died. This includes temple marriage." (Official Lds teaching pub -- Gospel Principles, p. 248) [Yeah, all: Think of The Addams family performing ghoulish eternal wedding rituals for the dead]
(5) Finally, if someone REALLY thinks they are Superman, and they’re sane, I don’t mind bursting their bubble. Lds leaders convey to all Mormons that THEY THEMSELVES are "saviors" -- and bumps Christ out as the ONLY SAVIOR we need! Here’s what I mean:

Citations from former lds "prophets" that flesh out this latter point: ...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).

"... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)

"We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)

[Colofornian]

Why don't they just baptize everyone who ever lived before and since with one dunk and get it over with.

(Well, I sense the jest behind the Q...lucridity deserves such jest...but were I to take your Q seriously, we all know Lds are such legalists that it'd never do...not to know their birth names & birthdates & such...the only other group I can think of that was so obsessed with records and with the dead were the Germans in charge of things during WWII)

[xjcsa]

I should be more clear: I’m not saying that Mormon teachings and doctrine are harmless - far from it. I’m just saying that “baptism” of the dead has no effect on the dead whatsoever. False teaching can, however, have very serious effects on the living.

[dixjea]

You guys need a new hobby

[Elsie]

Why don't they just baptize everyone who ever lived before and since with one dunk and get it over with.

Logically; this is IMPOSSIBLE, for all of the NAMES of these people are NOT accessable and will NEVER be accessable.

THEREFORE; the MORMONic ritual of Baptism for the Dead is a definite FALSE teaching.

There: I've said it.

[Elsie]

You guys need a new hobby

Don't have time - got all these meetings to go to...

[Elsie]

Looks like I’ve a couple MORE items for the Superiority Chart!

[svcw]

Yep