Posted on 10/01/2009 9:30:54 PM PDT by Tai_Chung
“Where did I ever defend the selling of indulgences?”
Well, you said you did not agree with Luther’s 95 theses and he was a heretic. It was the RC church that pushed indulgences. You say it was voluntary? To be told by the only spiritual authorities you know that your loved ones were in agony in purgatory and the only way to get them out was to pay indulgences? That’s extortion of the worst kind.
It was my understanding that popes over the years ordered death penalties for those not obedient to the papal bulls. Am I incorrect? I am willing to be corrected. I think of the Inquisition, for example, which I believe was done under the auspices of the RC church.
I did not claim Luther was killed. He was I think legitimately afraid for his life and attempts were made on his life.
You seem to think I just want to attack the RCs. I don’t hate them and I think they have many issues they have been great on and some excellent heroes. In the pro-life and traditional marriage fight we have been allies, not just for the issue, but for the same reasons, I believe. They have done some great, great work and I am not interested in bashing them to death.
I am just trying to defend Coral Ridge, and other Christian churches, from being taunted when a division occurs, as though that is exclusive to them. I am not affiliated with Coral Ridge.
I am no expert on Billy Graham, but I do know that he comes from the most extreme(Bob Jones) environment. While he backed away from that, he always appeared with short hair, suit and tie.
You wrote:
“Well, you said you did not agree with Luther’s 95 theses and he was a heretic.”
And he was a heretic, and there is no reason for me to agree with all that is in the 95 Theses. Once again you are claiming something I never said. I NEVER, EVER, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, defended any abuse of indulgences.
“It was the RC church that pushed indulgences.”
Preaching, not pushing.
“You say it was voluntary?”
Yep. Still are.
“To be told by the only spiritual authorities you know that your loved ones were in agony in purgatory and the only way to get them out was to pay indulgences?”
And who EVER claimed that? No one. That isn’t even what Johann Tetzel claimed. You seem to have no idea of what you’re talking about.
“That’s extortion of the worst kind.”
Prove it happened.
“It was my understanding that popes over the years ordered death penalties for those not obedient to the papal bulls.”
Your understanding?
” Am I incorrect?”
No. You have made several errors in this thread and clearly have no idea of what you’re talking about. Can you back up ANYTHING you say?
“I am willing to be corrected. I think of the Inquisition, for example, which I believe was done under the auspices of the RC church.”
The inquisitorial boards never executed anyone. Also, th emost “infamous” inquisition - the Spanish - was NOT under the control of the Church in Rome.
“I did not claim Luther was killed. He was I think legitimately afraid for his life and attempts were made on his life.”
Looking at the 400 years of wars that Luther help start through his actions, maybe he should have been afraid for his life.
“You seem to think I just want to attack the RCs. I don’t hate them and I think they have many issues they have been great on and some excellent heroes. In the pro-life and traditional marriage fight we have been allies, not just for the issue, but for the same reasons, I believe. They have done some great, great work and I am not interested in bashing them to death.”
What you don’t seem to realize is that the culture of death and disrespect for marriage is a by-product of Protestant culture.
“I am just trying to defend Coral Ridge, and other Christian churches, from being taunted when a division occurs, as though that is exclusive to them. I am not affiliated with Coral Ridge.”
I don’t care if you are. Protestantism problems are Protestantism problems. Period.
Not that short a hair-do. It was pretty long for those days. But nonetheless, I am afraid I was being contentious.
I have a pretty good knowledge of BG, although like you, I am not an expert. However, I was in my teens as BG influenced many of us through Youth for Christ in the Chicago area. He, and the other young guns of that movement were rock stars...they weren’t my Mama’s preachers by any means.
You are right that BG did go to Bob Jones University, for about a semester, but Bob Jones, Sr. split with him in 1957 (that split began a little earlier). You might be interested in knowing that Bob Jones IV attended Notre Dame as a grad student...but I don’t know for how long and whether he took a degree.
You can find a picture of Tullian at Christian Book Review dot com and see his “spiky” hair in a review of his book “Unfashionable”. You’ll see that he is not extreme in the least, and at least if he’s under 40, I would hope he doesn’t dress like me. BTW, you can see a lot of BG in him, though he is more swarthy.
The wheels came off the cart in 325 CE
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
when a Pagan started the Roman "church".
Ahh, I see.
Well, the stained glass is beautiful. And it's the only I know where I can obtain the body and blood of Jesus Christ, so it works for me.
Oh, and the liturgy!? Have ever heard it? I didn't think so. It's probably more Jewish than your average synagogue service or meeting or whatever.
Shalom.
Isn't that what one really means to say?
You’ve never organized a shoe closet or jewelry box, have you?
Ahh, I see.
From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.
from DOCUMENTS FROM THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA [THE FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL] A.D. 325 Emperor Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire He had issued an Edict making Sunday the day of rest In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine
They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.
(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.) When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was
universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the
feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,
than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of
immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same
manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the
holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the
Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and
whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may
transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,
which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the
present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not,
therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour
has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and
more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and
consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest
brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the
Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without
their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the
right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led
by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them? They
do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness
and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two
passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly
in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most
certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one
year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still
be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such
wicked people[the Jews]. Besides, consider well, that in such an
important matter, and on a subject of such great solemnity, there ought
not to be any division. Our Saviour has left us only one festal day of
our redemption, that is to say, of his holy passion, and he desired[to
establish] only one Catholic Church. Think, then, how unseemly it is,
that on the same day some should be fasting whilst others are seated
at a banquet; and that after Easter, some should be rejoicing at feasts,
whilst others are still observing a strict fast. For this reason, a Divine
Providence wills that this custom should be rectified and regulated in a
uniform way; and everyone, I hope, will agree upon this point. As, on
the one hand, it is our duty not to have anything in common with the
murderers of our Lord; and as, on the other, the custom now followed
by the Churches of the West, of the South, and of
the North, and by some of those of the East, is the most acceptable, it
has appeared good to all; and I have been guarantee for your consent,
that you would accept it with joy, as it is followed at Rome, in Africa,
in all Italy, Egypt, Spain, Gaul, Britain, Libya, in all Achaia, and in the
dioceses of Asia, of Pontus, and Cilicia. You should consider not only
that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but
also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we
should have nothing in common with the Jews. To sum up in few
words: By the unanimous judgment of all, it has been decided that the
most holy festival of Easter should be everywhere celebrated on one
and the same day, and it is not seemly that in so holy a thing there
should be any division. As this is the state of the case, accept joyfully
the divine favour, and this truly divine command; for all which takes
place in assemblies of the bishops ought to be regarded as proceeding
from the will of God. Make known to your brethren what has been
decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we
can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted
me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together,
seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for
destroying the evil designs of the devil, and thus causing faith, peace,
and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my
beloved brethren.
This is the Decree from the Pontiff of the Roman church to all the world.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire: "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest,
Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were
and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture
may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day
is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment
for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."
to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath.
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