Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

For Orthodox Jews--a Primer on Fundamentalist Protestants (Vanity; Jewish/Noachide ecumenical)
Self | 9/24/'09 | Zionist Conspirator

Posted on 09/24/2009 8:55:54 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator

First, an apology for making this a cacused thread. I know that Fundamentalist Protestant FReepers will feel cheated at having their religious beliefs explained by one not of their number, but to leave the thread open would be to invite thousands and thousands of posts, each and every one of them quoting the "new testament" to "prove" this and that. While I am no longer a Fundamentalist Protestant or chr*stian of any kind, I nevertheless used to be one and feel competent to explain their beliefs to Orthodox Jews--especially when those beliefs are so misunderstood and misrepresented.

I also feel compelled to inform the reader that while I am no longer a Protestant or chr*stian of any kind I still very much consider myself to be a Fundamentalist, for two reasons. First, "fundamentalism" as I define the term is the equation of religious truth with actual truth (ie, facts) rather than with allegedly more "profound" non-factual truth (note that this does not at all preclude deep profound truths that lie beneath the surface, nor does it entail a rejection of an authoritative Oral Interpretive Tradition). Secondly, "Fundamentalist" is as much an ethno-cultural designation as a theological one, and this means I was born a "Fundamentalist" and will remain one until I die because I was born a poor Southern rural Anglo-American (ever heard a Black Biblical literalist called a "Fundamentalist?").

Now, having established these parameters, to the gist of this post.

A very devout, very learned, and in fact very "fundamentalist" (non-Modern) Orthodox rabbi for whom I have the greatest respect has a video at his web site (otherwise I could not share this information) in which he says that no matter how pro-Israel or pro-Jewish Fundamentalist chr*stians may be, their friendship can never be fully accepted because they still believe that Jews "go to hell," which he interprets as the belief that Jews are "evil" and that Fundamentalist chr*stians must hate Jews if they believe such a thing. And I'm sorry, but this isn't true. Fundamentalist chr*stians do not believe that Jews are any more "evil" than any human being (including Fundamentalist chr*stians themselves) nor do they hate them. The fact is that, just as Fundamentalist chr*stians misunderstand Judaism because they impose their own worldview onto it, Orthodox Jews misunderstand the purpose of Fundamentalist chr*stianity, and that purpose is not to create good people or to suffuse the lower world with G-dliness. It is "to save souls."

In the Fundamentalist chr*stian worldview, every human being born into the world since the sin in the Garden is born "damned." He is born that way because thanks to "the Devil" he has something G-d never intended him to have--an evil inclination. You see, as they understand it, G-d, being good and perfect, simply cannot be responsible for the existence of evil or imperfection in any way whatsoever. In fact, He cannot abide it. His only option, compelled by His own holiness, is to "damn" every human being who is flawed and imperfect. Sounds harsh? Well, to you it does. To them it makes perfect sense. Get set for some real "multiculturalism," Reader!

Now every human being born into the world (though the Jewish mystical tradition disagrees here) has certainly been born with an evil inclination--a yetzer hara`. It is this, and not the actions to which it leads, that deserves "eternal damnation." The yetzer hara` is like a disease, and actual individual sins are like the symptoms of that disease. In any diseased population there will be some variety in the manifestation of symptoms. But the disease, along with its consequences, is present in all. This means that for the Fundamentalist Protestant (just as an example) both Joseph Stalin and Mother Teresa are equally worthy of damnation. The fact that the former manifested more symptoms--ie, more actual sins and acts of evil--has nothing to do with it. They both were born with the disease. Both deserved, and were destined, for "eternal damnation." Fundamentalist Protestants in no way hated Mother Teresa, nor did they consider her "evil" in the same sense that they consider Joseph Stalin to have been evil. But they insist that they both had the same "disease."

So if G-d did not create the yetzer hara`, who did? Their answer: "the Devil." Here G-d had created a world every bit as perfect, flawless, and sinless as Himself (being holy, He could have created no other kind) when along comes an evil supernatural counterpart and mucks the whole thing up. The world that was intended by G-d to be as perfect and sublime as Himself was now flawed and imperfect, and the Good G-d can respond to imperfection in only one way. Yes, like "Nomad" on that episode of "Star Trek." And a lack of personal sins or the presence of great personal holiness in this or that individual doesn't change a thing. Yes, so-and-so may have blessedly few symptoms, but the disease of imperfection is still present.

So G-d hit upon a wonderfully ingenious plan that would provide a loophole for each individual while still allowing Him to maintain His holiness by damning every single imperfect individual cursed with a yetzer hara`. [`Avodah zarah warning: read the following with caution] He would, chas vechalilah, incarnate Himself as a human being and then, chas vechalilah, vicariously damn Himself in the place of every single solitary human being who would ever live. This way He gets to maintain His holiness by damning every flawed, imperfect, sinful being (ie, every being with a yetzer hara`) while everyone has the opportunity to not actually experience this damnation personally. The catch: to take advantage of this loophole one must explicitly "accept" it. Every single solitary human being who does not explicitly accept this "gift of salvation" must, by G-d's holiness, be eternally damned. As for those who do accept it, they still deserve to be damned, but they can't go to "hell" because in G-d's eyes they're already there!

Sof davar hakol nishma`. Period. End of story. That's it, people. There are no commandments to observe and, actually, no "religion" to "practice." There is only this one-time-only acceptance of the "gift" and that's the end of the whole thing. It's not so much a "religion" as an innoculation program. The sole purpose for living for each and every Fundamentalist Protestant (unless they're Calvinists or universalists, and some are) is to help innoculate each and ever single human being. Now, from the perspective of Orthodox Judaism/Noachism this is horrifying, but these people do not have that perspective. It's a different religion, people. That means a different worldview and a different purpose. And to expect them remain chr*stians and not have this attitude is absolutely unreasonable and utterly impossible for them in good conscience. If they shared the Orthodox Jewish/Noachide worldview they wouldn't be chr*stians in the first place!

Like I said: real multiculturalism!

So what is to be done? Why, the answer is simple: convert them.

No, not to Judaism, but to the Noachide Laws, the true and only G-d-authorized religion for all non-Jewish humanity.

What is the root of this entire erroneous worldview? A denial of One G-d. A belief in an evil counterpart of G-d who spoiled G-d's perfect creation and in fact acted as a sort of co-creator, G-d forbid, in that he helped produce the world as it exists today. They don't understand that G-d, by His Blessed Will, intentionally created this lowest of all worlds with all its imperfections (even before the sin in the Garden). They have never heard of the first sin in history being committed by the ground before man was even created, or of the envy of the moon, or that HaShem Himself mandated a "sin offering" in His own behalf for having reduced the moon. They do not understand that G-d created the yetzer hara` and placed it within Adam before the commandment not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge had even been given. They do not understand that G-d Alone rules supreme and absolutely and that HaSatan is merely one of His angels doing his job, like all the others.

Do you know why they don't know this? I'll tell you why.

No one has ever told them!

And why has no one ever told them these things? That's simple also. It's because they were too busy calling them "haters" and "bigots" and "intolerant" to do so. And when they weren't calling them that they were trying to make liberal chr*stians out of them. How many millions and millions of dollars have been spent on "museums of tolerance," "brotherhood" campaigns, or propaganda to convince Fundamentalist chr*stians that "all religions and all 'gxds' are equally valid?" (And how in the name of all that is reasonable can anyone who goes by the name of Jew propagandize for such a thing?) And so long as Fundamentalist chr*stians sincerely believe that G-d wants them to "save" every single human being they will continue to try to do so and nothing you can say or do will dissuade them. You may criminalize chr*stian proselyitism, but all you will do is make Fundamentalist chr*stians into criminals by doing so. What if the government outlawed circumcision or eating matztzot during Pesach or qeri'at shema`? Whom would you obey--men or G-d? Then why do you ask Fundamentalist chr*stians to behave differently? They will stop trying to "innoculate" the world for only one reason: because they know that G-d has not commanded this. Once they know that they are not presently objectively obeying G-d then they will be able to stop proselytizing with a clear conscience. Until then each and every one of them feels personally responsible for every single individual who dies "unsaved." Considering that fact, I think they display remarkable restraint. They actually deserve to be praised, not calumniated for their "intolerance."

I myself can personally testify as to how liberating learning the Truth can be. I had always believed that after "Satan" had (chas vechalilah!) "run G-d off His throne" that he had "taken over" as the "gxd of this world" and that ever since Adam "acquired" the yetzer hara` by eating the fruit that I and every single human being was born the property of "Satan." By nature, he was our "gxd." G-d, the One, A-mighty, Omnipotent G-d, the King of the Kings of the Kings, was no longer naturally G-d. He didn't become a person's G-d until they received their innoculation. Until that point "Satan,"and not G-d, was "gxd." No matter how much I loved and desired Him, no matter how much I prayed to Him, He was not my G-d and would never be my G-d until I had received my "innoculation" (the "assurance" of which I never had, which meant that I had not received the "innoculation" at all even after doing everything I was supposed to to receive it). Do you know how astounding it is to Fundamentalist chr*stians to see Jews calling G-d their Father and enjoying a relationship with Him without having to ever pass "from nature to grace?" The idea that every single human being already has a relationship with G-d merely because He is our Creator and L-rd, is absolutely incomprehensible to them. Yet they already have this relationship. And all they have yet to do is to acknowledge it and accept HaShem as their G-d to complete the process. No "innoculation" or "salvation experience" required.

Before closing bringing this vanity to a close I would like to address two other areas. The first is the difference between Fundamentalist Protestant and ancient liturgical chr*stians; the second is the issue of Jews, especially Orthodox Jews, promoting "tolerance" as the greatest virtue.

On the surface, Orthodox Jews will feel much less afraid of and much more comfortable with Catholic, Orthodox, Non-Chalcaedonian, and Non-Ephesine chr*stians. This is somewhat ironic considering that it is precisely these churches that have committed the vast majority of all chr*stian atrocities against the Jewish People. But they do not proselytize--in fact, are as opposed to Protestant missionaries as Jews are--(being, like Judaism, essentially ethnic religions, however "universal" they proclaim themselves to be), and they do not subscribe to the radical antinomian "loophole" soteriology I have elucidated above (since they hold that the world has been "redeemed" for two thousand years and every human being born since that time is born into a "redeemed" world and assumed to be somewhere on "the path of redemption" himself). However, this is not to their credit. Fundamentalist Protestants have taken the Pauline doctrine of the inadequacy of the "Law" (the Holy Torah) and have very logically and consistently applied it to all human effort. The more ancient versions of chr*stianity, on the other hand, have restricted Paul's critique of "the law" to the Holy Torah. It alone is useless. It alone has been replaced. Natural human efforts to the good are still valid and useful, and of course they claim that after abrogating the Torah (G-d forbid!!!) G-d immediately replaced it with the laws, ceremonials, and customs of chr*stianity (chr*stmas replacing Pesach, rosary beads replacing tefillin, etc.). However easier to get along with these chr*stians are (at least in the modern world), their animus to the Torah is much greater because it alone is rejected as "insufficient for salvation" ("salvation" not being its purpose to begin with). In rejecting all human effort--and very much rejecting traditional chr*stian law and ceremonial--Fundamentalist Protestants are acknowledging that no law could ever be greater than the Holy Torah. If it is (chas vechalilah!) "insufficient," then so is all human action. And contrariwise, if any human action had any merit at all, it would be obedience to the Holy Torah. It must also be remembered that Fundamentalist Protestant antinomianism and rejection of "unwritten tradition" was not formed in opposition to Judaism but to Catholicism.

Then of course there is the fact the that "tolerant" and "philo-Semitic" chr*stians whom most Jews prefer to the Fundamentalists almost always have a very low view of the Torah and deny that any authorititative Revelation has ever occurred in history, but that all claimants at such revelation are myths. Of course such people don't believe that Jews "go to hell." They don't believe anyone does! And yes they "respect" Judaism--but no more and no less than any other religion on the face of the earth, since they are all "equally valid." Why in the world would Orthodox Jews want to encourage such an erroneous attitude?

And this serves as a useful segueway to my final point, which is that Orthodox Jews have no business promoting "tolerance" in the first place, and for a very good reason: Orthodox Jews are Monotheists (indeed, the only true Monotheists), and Monotheism is the antithesis of "tolerance." A "monotheist" who advocates "tolerance" as the supreme virtue is like a square circle--a contradiction in terms. If it's tolerance you want, then I have the perfect solution for you: polytheism. It's the most tolerant religion in the world! The rabbi I mentioned at the beginning of this vanity points out in his videos that until chr*stianity arose there was no "anti-Semitism" in the modern sense of the word and that the ancient world, with some exceptions, was very "tolerant" of Jews. But the ancient world was polytheistic! Of course when non-Jews abandoned polytheism for a watered-down monotheism they became intolerant. Monotheism teaches that G-d is a Jealous G-d, not a "tolerant G-d!" For any Jew to proclaim in one breath that the essence of Judaism is undying warfare against polytheism and in the next that Judaism teaches tolerance of all other faiths is to flatly contradict oneself. If Jews want a tolerant world, Jews should drop Monotheism at once and become crusaders for the restoration of ancient polytheism.

I would like to make just one more point. It is often pointed out that Judaism teaches that "the righteous of the nations have a portion in the World To Come," but this is grossly misunderstood. The "righteous of the nations," objectively speaking, are observant Noachides, not "all good people regardless of what they believe." Once again, this is objectively speaking. Subjectively speaking, only G-d alone can judge the heart of each individual and know whether that person would be an observant Noachide if he understood this to be G-d's Will. However, speaking objectively again, all non-Jews are commanded to relinquish all false religions (including "monotheistic" ones like chr*stianity and islam) and accept and abide by the Seven Noachide Commandments and all their implications (with repentance always available for our failures, thank G-d!). So once again Judaism, while it does not and has never sought to make Jews out of all humanity (the Jews are a small chosen nation), are nevertheless commanded to "compel"--not "suggest," but compel--all mankind to abandon their false "gxds" and their idols and accept HaShem and His Laws. So much for "the righteous of the nations have a portion in the World To Come" making this unnecessary.

In closing, I apologize for my often blunt and corrective language in addressing Orthodox Jewish FReepers who for the most part are not guilty of the things I wish to correct, but as the case of the pious rabbi I mentioned illustrates, even the most understanding of Torah Jews do not truly understand the Fundamentalist Protestants because they do not share their worldview. I have elucidated that worldview to the best of my poor ability not to proselytize for it (G-d forbid!) but to make it better understood so that its adherents may be better apprised of their true duties to G-d and be liberated from all false and erroneous religious doctrines.

May HaShem direct this to the hearts of those who need to understand.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; Judaism
KEYWORDS: fundamentalists; jews; monotheism; torah
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 121-125 next last
To: Zionist Conspirator

I am curious. You say you were once a Christian. Why did you convert? Jews are forbidden to prosletyze, and most Christians are not that aware of the Noahide Laws.

If you prefer not to answer, that’s okay. But I find that converts are much more knowledgeable about the technicalities of Judaism, (but not the nuances,) than many Jews who were born to it.

It is fascinating to me that you would ascribe a task like this to yourself.


41 posted on 09/24/2009 5:40:21 PM PDT by MestaMachine (One if by land, 2 if by sea, 3 if by Air Force 1.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator

Was that a typo?


42 posted on 09/24/2009 6:29:35 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Don't whine to me. It's all Darby's fault.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator
You know, that's exactly what I used to think!

What, that they didn’t try to convert every Jew in sight? Or that they weren’t “fundamentalist Protestants?” (That was a joke, BTW.) Obviously they were knowledgeable Jews who were quite comfortable with the notion that their fellow Jews who did not believe in Christ would die in their sins and suffer eternal condemnation.

Of course you reject that idea, that what we have in the NT portion of God’s revelation is, in fact, God’s revelation and that the testimony of Jesus, Peter, Paul, et al is authentic.

You don’t want to argue theology, but yet you have made questionable statements about what “fundamentalist Protestants” believe, and how that is somehow radically different than what Christ and His Church has always taught.

What were you expecting with this sort of post?

43 posted on 09/24/2009 6:31:42 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Don't whine to me. It's all Darby's fault.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator
BTW, I'm done. You can rest easy now. I would just recommend you keep away from statements like:
However, speaking objectively again, all non-Jews are commanded to relinquish all false religions (including "monotheistic" ones like chr*stianity and islam) and accept and abide by the Seven Noachide Commandments and all their implications (with repentance always available for our failures, thank G-d!).
if you wish to retain the caucus or ecumenical label on a thread. Otherwise loud mouths like me are bound to show up and question your sanity.
44 posted on 09/24/2009 6:44:34 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Don't whine to me. It's all Darby's fault.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator

The purpose of this article is only to clear. As part of your misrepresenting both Fundamentalists and God, you state,

“In the Fundamentalist chr*stian worldview, every human being born into the world since the sin in the Garden is born “damned.” and that is it their sinful nature that damns them.

This is not what Fund. believe, and the closest you can come the Calvinism, but which does not believe all are born damned. Moreover, many Arminian Fundamentalists hold that man is a free moral agent, and that souls go to Hell for the sins they committed, and not for Adam’s, though rejecting Christ, who alone can save, effectively is the ultimate sin.

Now here is just what you feared, some Bible quotes:

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev. 20:13)

Notice “their works”, not those of Adam’s, or possessing a sinful nature. For The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Dt. 24:16)

The Bible also make clear that you are not a Christian or a Fund. one because you were raised that way, so may you get on the Lord’s side and stop misrepresenting His word.


45 posted on 09/24/2009 6:55:28 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator
The "*" is to prevent writing out in full the name of a false "gxd."

It has the opposite effect. * is a wildcard operator, so it picks up any letter and could inadvertently include other gods or places, such as Gilead.

46 posted on 09/24/2009 7:12:30 PM PDT by ElectronVolt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

While Fund. Christians are agreed on the means of salvation, and such as repent and believe on Christ enjoy a basic spiritual unity, to treat them as a monolithic group as concerns the basis for damnation, as regards the deep subject of election, shows a critical ignorance of them.


47 posted on 09/24/2009 7:53:24 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
BTW, it was these same apparently “fundamentalist Protestants” by the name of Simon Peter, Saul of Tarsus, etc who tried to convert every Jew in sight to Christianity.

Actually, they didn't. James, Peter and John explained/showed to Paul how many converts were zealous for the Law. They were converting heathens/non Jews to their religion at that time, which we today call Judaism. It had no name at that time.

48 posted on 09/24/2009 9:13:08 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (Proverbs 26:13 The sluggard saith:'There is a pierced in the way; yea, a pierced is in the streets.')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
who abandoned the objective truth of God’s Word and covenant in favor of a religion more to their liking and circumstances. They have even duped

This Religion Forum thread is labeled "ecumenical" meaning that antagonism is not allowed on this thread.
49 posted on 09/24/2009 9:14:58 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Rockingham
Christianity and Judaism are complementary and essential to each other. Without the foundation of Judaism and the Old Testament, Christianity is little more than a Hellenistic mystery cult and the Jews are a minor ethnic group distinguished by an obscure faith limited to themselves. Without Christianity, knowledge and belief in God is restricted to Jews instead of attaining the universality of a true God.

If we go back to the time of the flood, when all the wicked perished and only the family of Noah survived, all the people that survived at that time were gentiles. The covenant made at that time, in Genesis 9, is known as the Noahic Covenant, and was for all people.

Later at Sinai another covenant was made, this time with those that became the Israelites. This covenant consisted of the same things as the Noahic covenant, but it had additional commandments as well. These additional commandments pertained to the Israelites because they were to be a light unto the nations. They were to be an example to the gentiles. The Israelites were to be a Holy nation. The extra commandments pertained to dietary guidelines for purity, they also contained commandments for their 'priesthood', and Sabbath keeping.

Now, back to Noah and his family. As people dispersed, they took the Noahic Covenant with them. This is why we see so many similarities between so many religions of the world. There are differences too. These differences are what we call today 'traditions of man'. Remove these differences, and focus on the similarities and you find 3 things.

1. Belief in G-d

2. Instructions in moral conduct (we know them as the 10 commandments, but other religions call them other things, such as the 10 fold path, the negative confessions, the precious garland, the 10 charges, etc.)

3. The Golden rule, or Royal rule. We know this as 'do unto others'.

Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence. (Confucianism - Mencius VII.A.4 )

Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them. (Christianity - Bible, Matthew 7:12)

Tsekung asked, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?" Confucius replied, "It is the word shu--reciprocity: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you." (Confucianism - Analects 15.23)

Confucious predates Yehoshua/Joshua (Jesus) by about 500 years.

As you can see, 'universality' was already set into place long before christianity came along. One faith, one family.

50 posted on 09/24/2009 9:30:01 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (Proverbs 26:13 The sluggard saith:'There is a pierced in the way; yea, a pierced is in the streets.')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator

As a Christian I do not believe Jews are going to hell for denying Christ, I do think at some point they will know Jesus Christ is the one they have been waiting for....

GOD knows that for many Jews especially in a Modern World do not recognize the Jesus of the Christians to be there Messiah, although many Jews have come to believe in Jesus Christ..

For me personally I have a real relationship with Jesus Christ, it is not based upon any particular religion, it is based on his gospel message and on his guidance and on his gift of salvation...

it is a relationship that enhances my life for the good in every way, who makes me want to please GOD and other’s.


51 posted on 09/24/2009 10:16:51 PM PDT by TaraP (*Religion* is Man trying to reach GOD.Christ is GOD reaching out to Man.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: TaraP; Zionist Conspirator
As a Christian I do not believe Jews are going to hell for denying Christ, I do think at some point they will know Jesus Christ is the one they have been waiting for

And what about those Jews who died and never realized that?

52 posted on 09/25/2009 12:27:14 AM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

You cannot post an article which is antagonistic toward a group and then exclude them from responding in kind. It is you who make Fund. out to be “duped”.


53 posted on 09/25/2009 4:26:42 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator

Hello, Zioniest Conspirator. Most interesting post. You have some aspects of Christianity correct. But you have misunderstood some others. Even thought these misunderstandings are subtle, they are important. First of all, correct Christian theology does not put the blame on the devil for man’s sinful condition. Further, God did not, in fact, create man “perfect.” The Bible never says that. It says He created everything “good” or “very good.” God, did in reality, create man with the ability to sin—because he created him with free will. Just what happened to mankind at the Fall as described in Genesis is not well-defined either by the Bible or by Christian theologians, so speculation about it is pointless. Let it be simply said that the Bible—including the Old Testament—in numerous places teaches that all men are sinful. Just a few Old Testament passages: Gen 6:5, 8:11, 1 Kngs 8:46, Job 14:1-4, 25:2-6, Ps 14, Ps 51:3-5, 58:3-5, 143:1-2, Pr 14:12, Ecc 7:20, Is 53:6, 55:8-9, 59:2, 64:6, Jer 17:9, Dan 9:1-11.

You have also mischaracterized the doctrine of justification. Even Calvinists, who believe that those saved are chosen by God, believe that one must persevere (in faith and love, etc by free will) during one’s life to enter heaven.

You are invited to check out our website: http://www.faithfacts.org/bible-101/christian-cram-course


54 posted on 09/25/2009 4:38:04 AM PDT by grumpa (VP)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ET(end tyranny)

>Actually, they didn’t. James, Peter and John explained/showed to Paul how many converts were zealous for the Law. They were converting heathens/non Jews to their religion at that time, which we today call Judaism. It had no name at that time.<

No, while Noahide laws may be seen being a requirement in Acts 15, Judaism did/does not preach, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) which Peter did to 3k+ Jews, and afterward to other Jews and Gentiles as well (Acts 10). This was Christianity whether it was called that or not, and it was in Acts 11:26 that that the name Christian was given to those who previously were seen as distinctive from Judaism. In Acts 21, James did give the well-meaning advice for Paul to go to the Jewish celebration of Pentecost, which only showed that what the apostles preached (Acts 15) was unacceptable to Judaism. And John was certainly not preaching Noahide laws as a means of salvation either.


55 posted on 09/25/2009 4:54:10 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: ET(end tyranny)

The Bible itself does not claim that no moral truth exists outside it, and in fact the N.T. confirms that God provides a basic moral enlightenment to all, including Gentiles. (Romans 2) Paul himself quoted a truth from a pagan philosopher on Mar;s Hill. (Acts 17) But as “the law of the Lord is perfect”, (Ps. 19) all must be tested by the Scriptures.

As far as the ethic of reciprocity, its reiteration in the positive sense is rare, esp. as a concise command before the N.T., and as it is Christ who is declared to be the word and wisdom of God, that the law was uttered in various forms before its most sublime form in Matthew is of no challenge to Him as its source.


56 posted on 09/25/2009 5:26:48 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: MestaMachine

There are two Genesis stories. In neither one was Eve forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
AND YET, Christianity blames women for the sins of the world.

Wrong, as your statement requires negating that Adam was the head of the wife, and thus the wife was commanded through him not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Gn. 3:2,3)

As for your second statement, the N.T. does affirm that the women did break God’s law, but recognizes this as being due to deception, which is a basis for exclusion for female leadership over men, (1Tim 2) but Adam is recognized as being the more accountable and evil-affecting his posterity by his disobedience.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Rom. 5)


57 posted on 09/25/2009 5:40:09 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: - Prv. 28:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
No, while Noahide laws may be seen being a requirement in Acts 15, Judaism did/does not preach, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) which Peter did to 3k+ Jews, and afterward to other Jews and Gentiles as well (Acts 10).

Actually Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus did preach that people needed to repent.

Matthew 3
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3:
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Mark 6
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

In Acts 10 which you happen to cite. Read closely. The Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius prior to baptism, which just goes to show that baptism isn't necessary. Cornelius had already been found to be acceptable to G-d.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself." (Deut) The "Two Tablets of the Law".

Acts 10:2 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people (Second Tablet of the Law), and prayed to God alway (First Tablet of the Law) (KJV)

The First Tablet of the Law contained the commandments and obligations given to man concerning maintaining his relationship with God. In other words these commandments were "vertical"; between man and God. These commandments in the First Tablet of the Law dealt with man's relationship with God and when obeyed guaranteed man's continued acceptance with God. These Laws, or should I say "categories" of Laws were manifestations of man's Covenant stipulations with God whereby if observed "kept" man in good relationship with God within his respective Covenant. The Second Tablet of the Law contained the commandments and obligations given to man concerning man's relationship with man

Cornelius, not a Jew mind you, and not a convert to Judaism, keeping the Laws of God written on his heart which happens to be parallel to the Laws of Moses. Cornelius, the Gentile Godfearer mentioned in Acts 10, was a centurion at Caesarea and serves as a good example of what a Godfearer did religiously. First, he and his household were devout (the Greek word is eulabes) and Godfearing (Phoboumenos Ton Theon), which is a double adjective referring to him and his family which shows their exemplary lives characterized by Jewish norms and values.

2126 eulabes yoo-lab-ace' from 2095 and 2983; taking well (carefully), i.e. circumspect (religiously, pious):--devout.

2095 eu yoo neuter of a primary eus (good); (adverbially) well:--good, well (done).

Acts 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did (Second Tablet of the Law) (KJV)

Both Dorcas and Cornelius gave alms to the needy? This is taught by Judaism to result in a life that is honoring to God and the fruit of which earns one Eternal Life. Is it an accident that we see a resurrection from the dead of a person where the only thing mentioned is that she "did good works" and "gave alms" which just happens to be obedience to the Second Tablet of the Law? Is this just a coincidence?

This was Christianity whether it was called that or not, and it was in Acts 11:26 that that the name Christian was given to those who previously were seen as distinctive from Judaism.

Yehoshua was Jewish and he never left Judaism. His followers were Jewish as well.

James also told Paul to go purify himself with several men that had a vow on them. (nazarite) to show the people that he (Paul) still followed the Law!

58 posted on 09/25/2009 7:12:16 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (Proverbs 26:13 The sluggard saith:'There is a pierced in the way; yea, a pierced is in the streets.')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Reddy
I appreciate why you want to explain that Christians do not think Jews are more evil than anyone else (which I did not even know was an issue!!)

Maybe certain christians got that idea from this:

From the Council of Nicea (325):(excerpted)

It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded.

In rejecting their custom,(1) we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them?

They do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such wicked people[the Jews].

The church has done nearly all it could to distance themselves from the root that they 'claim' to be grafted unto. Yet, it resembles nothing of the root anymore.

An actual admission that the church has deviated from 'the way' and gone after 'another way'!! And to top it off, they give credit to Yehoshua for this 'new way'. The church admits that this 'other way' is more CONVENIENT!

59 posted on 09/25/2009 12:19:44 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (Proverbs 26:13 The sluggard saith:'There is a pierced in the way; yea, a pierced is in the streets.')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

Comment #60 Removed by Moderator


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 121-125 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson