Can imperfect scriptures lead to God?

Mormon Times ^ | Sept. 21, 2009 | Michael R. Ash

[Colofornian]

The 8th Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

In the title page of the Book of Mormon, we read, "...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God."

Lastly, we read the words of Moroni shortly after he took over his father's record: "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him ... we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, ... and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record" (Mormon 9:30-31).

As emphasized repeatedly in this series, anything with which man is involved -- even if directed by God -- will be imperfect, fallible and, to some degree, errant. Neither ancient nor modern prophets were, or are, perfect, and the scriptures they've produced will likewise fall short of inerrancy. Fallible human prophets and errant scripture can still lead us to God despite any imperfections.

As explained in previous issues, prophets must communicate revelation -- whether in general-conference addresses or when writing scripture -- according to their own language and their limited understanding of this world and the eternities.

All language is inherently ambiguous -- all have words or phrases that can mean different things to different readers. Take the word "cleave" for example. It can mean to cut something apart -- as in "to cleave a diamond into two smaller stones" -- but it can also mean to cause two things to adhere together, as in "therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Genesis 2:24).

Or how about "critical"? We can be critical of someone else's views, or we can say the Bible is critical to Christianity. The context, time frame, and cultural and other variables can affect how a word is understood. The Bible has gone through various translations and each translator made determinations about the meaning of words based on his or her familiarity with the words and how they would have been used by the specific author. Errors are bound to happen.

Some might be tempted to think that because the Book of Mormon came directly from God to Joseph Smith there shouldn't be any errors. This, however, is a naive assumption. An exact word-for-word translation from one language to another typically yields little more than gibberish.

Even for Joseph to have understood the text, the Lord would have had to translate the Nephite words into something that made sense to Joseph. And it's important to remember that the purpose of translating the Book of Mormon into English was to teach spiritual truths that can cause individuals to receive personal revelation, not to reveal historical truths about the ancient inhabitants of the Americas (more on this in the next issue).

Even if God would have conveyed a perfect text to Joseph Smith, any reader whose language, culture or understanding of English words varied from Joseph's Smith's would -- on their own reading of the text -- naturally misinterpret some passages of text.

What does this mean for us who read the imperfect scriptures? The word of God need not be perfect in order to invoke the power of drawing us closer to God. In Doctrine and Covenants section 128, for example, Joseph Smith quotes Malachi 4:5-6 exactly as it is quoted in the King James Version Bible. In verse 18 the prophet Joseph added: "I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands."

We should take the same approach to the scriptures as we take with the prophets -- we should seek the guidance of the Spirit. While the word of God may contain errors, and while we may not fully understand every nuance of every phrase, word or term in the scriptures, the Holy Spirit has the power to help us understand the word of God in its role of drawing us closer to the divine and opening our hearts to personal revelation.

[metmom]

Explain away, Christ’s virgin birth, being born in Bethlehem, being called out of Egypt (where Joseph fled with him as a baby), being sold for 30 pieces of silver, being killed with robbers, having lots cast for his clothes, Jesus was pierced and none of his bones broken when crucified.

All those things are specifically listed in the Gospels by the writers of the Gospels as being fulfilled Scripture, and you claim they’re not.

Go ahead, show that none of that happened. Tell us why you think you’re right and the rest of the world is wrong.

[LeGrande]

Fine. Provide it.

∆x∆p ≈ h since you didn't like E=MC² last time.

[metmom]

Yes, it is a very specific prophecy, one about the end times where.

Luke 21:20-28

20"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The Coming of the Son of Man

25"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet. The generation that will see those things may or may no exist yet. You can't use as yet unfulfilled prophecy to demonstrate that is false because it hasn't been fulfilled yet.

That's intellectually dishonest.

[metmom]

Answer the questions.

Trying to get off track to try to deflect attention from what’s been asked you, only shows that you have NOTHING, but one big FAIL.

If you’re right, as you claim, you shouldn’t have any trouble demonstrating it and shouldn’t need those tactics.

[LeGrande]

Go ahead, show that none of that happened. Tell us why you think you’re right and the rest of the world is wrong.

None of your 'prophecies', were prophecies. Look them up and see what is actually being said : )

Taking quotes out of context from the Tanakh is just silly. If you think you have a particularly good one, point it out and we can discuss it. But just one please, trying to flood me with BS simply doesn't cut it.

Seriously I would like to be shown that I am wrong. I have a plaque on my desk. "Make my day, prove me wrong."

[Colofornian]

That is in regards to the laws of Men, context is your friend.

OK, I considered your context -- you think all man-made law is arbitrary and filled to the brim with whim.

Let's first agree on what we can agree on: That, indeed, much of man-made law is indeed whim-based. So we agree much on source for many -- but not all laws, and diverge at degree.

So please consider the context of why I say not all man-made law is arbitrary.

You don't believe in God. But let's say He exists. If that's the case, perhaps you could agree with me that just as we have character & personality, then likewise we are "imaged" after Him. Just as we have character qualities & attributes, He does, too.

For example, if He is a God of Honesty and a Covetousless God -- then we can conclude that theft, burglary, and robbery are not just whim-based man-made laws, but are derived from the very nature and character of Who God consistently is.

But yes even in a general sense, there are no absolutes, and no that is not a self contradicting statement.

Well, to continue with my point above, and then add your comment here into the mix -- you don't even live your own life consistently with this viewpoint. If "red light" doesn't absolutely mean "stop" in the intersections where you drive, why do you stop? (Or perhaps you don't...maybe you're consistent, after all, and randomly drive through red lights...maybe "red" = "green" to you and you drive through all of them)

...there are no absolutes.

Shall we label this LeGrande's First Commandment? (Or do you have others that belong in front of this one?). Here, let me write it out for you:

"Thou shalt absolutely have only one absolute: There are no absolutes...well, except if you read the fine-print footnote that this one exists..." -- LeGrande 3:16

You on the other hand have nothing more than faith.

I'm sorry, but the account of Jesus rising from the dead happened in time & space, an historical account. Even faithless doubting Thomas was convinced (John 20). (So don't patronize Thomas as to how "full of faith" he was, lest ye be guilty of bearing false witness against thy historic neighbor).

Dogma is a belief held without evidence...I have evidence to support my beliefs.

Nice twisting of definitional realities to make something fit.

Dogma is a 16th century Latin term derived from Greek words, dogma and dogmatos. All it meant in its original meanings was "philosophical tenet" or opinion -- literally "that which one thinks is true" from dokein -- "to seem good, think." [Here, if you don't believe me, just go to online etymology Web site: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dogma]

All you've done is spout off in this thread your personal opinions" -- literally dogmas by original definition
-- your "philosophical tenets" -- literally dogmas by original definition
-- "that which" you "think is true" -- literally dogmas by original definition
...and not only are you dogma-riddled content-wise, but tone wise. You are very dogmatic about your absolutes!

[metmom]

The only prophecy that I’ve ever seen LG trot out in an effort to prove that the Bible is wrong, is the one he misinterprets.

Context, man, just like you demand of others.

Jesus is presenting paragraphs of material about the end times, and all of a sudden you expect us to believe that He for no good reason, switches to speaking about a totally unrelated generation than the one He was mentioning, and then without skipping a beat, goes back on to talking about the future generation?

Won’t wash here. Find some other gullible fool who is looking for reasons to reject the Bible. That’s the only other kind or person who is going to be blind enough to fall for you lapsed logic and errant reasoning.

[svcw]

...there are no absolutes.

absolutely

[metmom]

None of your 'prophecies', were prophecies. Look them up and see what is actually being said : )

No, you tell us. You're the one making the assertion. It's up to you to support it.

[svcw]

Oh, snap!!!

[Colofornian]

...there are no absolutes. [LeGrande]

absolutely [svcw]

(I think LeGrande could form his own new philosophical club...something like Absolutists For Relativism -- AFR)

[LeGrande]

You don't believe in God. But let's say He exists. If that's the case, perhaps you could agree with me that just as we have character & personality, then likewise we are "imaged" after Him. Just as we have character qualities & attributes, He does, too.

Sounds to me that you created GOD in your own image.

Well, to continue with my point above, and then add your comment here into the mix -- you don't even live your own life consistently with this viewpoint. If "red light" doesn't absolutely mean "stop" in the intersections where you drive, why do you stop? (Or perhaps you don't...maybe you're consistent, after all, and randomly drive through red lights...maybe "red" = "green" to you and you drive through all of them)

If there is a compelling reason, like say a semi behind me can't stop, I will run a red light. Why do you feel that running a red light is an absolute? Police and Ambulances do it all the time.

...and not only are you dogma-riddled content-wise, but tone wise. You are very dogmatic about your absolutes!

Tone wise? That there are no absolutes? Then show me an absolute?

[LeGrande]

No, you tell us. You're the one making the assertion. It's up to you to support it.

I did. Christ prophesied that all prophecy would be fulfilled before people in that generation passed away. Obviously that didn't happen, unless you think there are a few 2000 year old people running around? Do you?

[metmom]

Anyone can declare anything wrong when it’s taken out of context.

That has been demonstrated to you, and to the others who are reading this thread who can see how inconsistent you are.

It’s really pretty amusing to watch you try to use Scripture from a God you say you don’t believe to try to prove that the Scripture is wrong.

In order to use Scripture in that way, means that it in some way must be authoritative. But if there are no absolutes, then it is not authoritative, nor is anything else you would use to disprove Scripture, yourself included.

Your thought processes and what you present as reasoning and logic are so full of holes, you could drive a mack truck through them.

[Elsie]

Next time you go to Church why don't you get us a prophecy regarding Obama's financial plan?

"...and a little child shall lead them..."

[Elsie]

... the prophet is always wrong ...

Then bet against him (her) and make a fortune!

[Elsie]

""Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Which 'these'?

[Elsie]

E=MC²

Evolution depends on the same equation; only inverted...

M=E/C²      (Let there be LIGHT)

---

Then ya gotta ask, "Where'd the ENERGY come from?

[Elsie]

Christ prophesied that all prophecy would be fulfilled before people in that generation passed away.

Oh??

---

Matthew 24

 

 1.  Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.
 2.  "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 

 3.  As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 

 4.  Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
 5.  For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many.
 6.  You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
 7.  Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
 8.  All these are the beginning of birth pains.
 9.  "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
 10.  At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
 11.  and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
 12.  Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
 13.  but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 

 14.  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
 15.  "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,'  spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--
 16.  then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
 17.  Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
 18.  Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
 19.  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
 20.  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
 21.  For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
 22.  If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
 23.  At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it.
 24.  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
 25.  See, I have told you ahead of time.
 26.  "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
 27.  For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
 28.  Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
 29.  "Immediately after the distress of those days "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
 30.  "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
 31.  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
 32.  "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
 33.  Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
 34.  I tell you the truth, this generation  will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

[Saundra Duffy]

“Glenn’s faith sounds much more like ‘orthodox’ Christianity and less like ‘mormonism’!

That’s because Mormons are devoted to the Savior, Jesus Christ. Glenn’s faith is the faith of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I’m proud to be among them.

It’s so strange to be told I’m going to hell by so-called Christians.

But then again, we are a peculiar people; I’ll give you that.