Posted on 09/09/2009 10:07:42 AM PDT by topcat54
Many of the congregations among the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ are captivated by the so-called “prophetic ministry” of David Reagan. He is welcomed into the pulpits of some of our largest congregations. One Christian church preacher admitted that neither he nor his congregation knew anything about Bible prophecy, but he invited Reagan to speak because he had heard Reagan elsewhere and he “sounded convincing.” The people fill the pews and accept his brand of biblical interpretation as the standard. The purpose of this epistle is to issue a warning to those who “have ears to hear.”
(Excerpt) Read more at thecra.org ...
Sorry I do not have all the verses and exact chapter and verse without looking them up in Scripture. . It is in the New Testament in several places. Regardless of some of the messages from modern pulpits..
More later. Gotta run.
Good luck.
A remarkable number of people around here are able to ignore all the scriptural evidence that when the Jews as a people rejected Christ, God removed them from their place of special privilege, again as a people.
Individual Jews can of course be saved on exactly the same basis as anybody else.
Romans 11
Israel Is Not Cast Away
1I say then, God has not (A)rejected His people, has He? (B)May it never be! For (C)I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God (D)has not rejected His people whom He (E)foreknew (F)Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3”Lord, (G)THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4But what is the divine response to him? “(H)I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (I)a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6But (J)if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7What then? What (K)Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L)hardened;
8just as it is written,
“(M)GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“(N)LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10”(O)LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
11(P)I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (Q)May it never be! But by their transgression (R)salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (S)make them jealous.
12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (T)fulfillment be!
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead?
16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19(AE)You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.
23And they also, (AK)if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery—so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation—that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27”(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are (AT)enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for (AU)the sake of the fathers;
29for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32For (AX)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of (AY)the riches both of the (AZ)wisdom and knowledge of God! (BA)How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34For (BB)WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
35Or (BC)WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
36For (BD)from Him and through Him and to Him are all things (BE)To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
What exactly is the meaning of "all Israel" in this passage?
1I say then, God has not (A)rejected His people, has He? (B)May it never be! For (C)I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[Clearly, here, he is talking about literal, physical, sons of Abraham. And, in Paul's particular case, Benjamin.]
2God (D)has not rejected His people whom He (E)foreknew (F)Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
[Again (I believe) literal, physical, sons of Abraham.]
3"Lord, (G)THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
[Again (I believe) literal, physical, sons of Abraham.]
4But what is the divine response to him? "(H)I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
[Here. I believe, he is talking about PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham.]
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (I)a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
[Here. I believe, he is talking about PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham.][Possibly, those who had accepted Yeshua as the Messiah.]
6But (J)if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
[This verse lends credence to the concept that verse 5 means Jews who accepted Yeshua.]
7What then? What (K)Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L)hardened;
[Here, it seems that we have 1. The whole of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham. WHICH ARE THEN divided into 2. Those who were chosen (became Christians) and 3. Those who were hardened.]
8just as it is written,
"(M)GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
[ THEM clearly means that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
9And David says,
"(N)LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10"(O)LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
[ THEIR plainly refers to that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
11(P)I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (Q)May it never be! But by their transgression (R)salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (S)make them jealous.
[ THEY and THEM clearly means that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their (T)fulfillment be!
[ THEIR plainly refers to that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.] [And THEY are (in the future) going to be FULFILLED! Praise God!]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
[ Gentiles: People who were NOT literal, physical, sons of Abraham']
14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them.
[Probably, meaning the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, but possibly inhabitants of Judea; Judeans; Jews.]
15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead?
[ Might be referring to Judeans, but almost certainly [See Verse 12]
16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
[ The ROOT and the first LUMP must necessarily be the literal, physical, sons of Abraham See v 17, below).]
17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
[ some of the (AB)branches: refers to that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
[ you, being a wild olive means the GENTILES, to whom Paul is writing.]
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
[ the branches is that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
[ you is the GENTILES to whom Paul is writing.]
[ the root is the literal, physical, sons of Abraham.][See note @ verse 7.]
19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
[ You is the Gentiles.][branches is that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;
[their and they are the branches is that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
[ you Is still the Gentiles.]
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
[branches is that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
[ you Is still the Gentiles.]
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.
[those who fell, the branches is that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
[ you Is still the Gentiles.]
23And they also, (AK)if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
[ they and them are the branches is that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD. And God is able to graft them BACK in to the HOLY ROOT, from which they were broken off.]
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
[ you and wild olive tree are the Gentiles, to whom Paul was writing.]
[ cultivated olive tree, and their own olive tree means That part of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham; who did not fall away.]
[ natural branches are the branches that felll away: that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
25For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery--so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
[ you your Gentiles refers to the Gentiles, to whom Paul was writing.]
[ partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel means, I believe, the branches which were broken off. Thus, ISRAEL, here, means iteral, physical, sons of Abraham.]
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
[ DELIVERER HE Refers to Yeshua.]
[ Israel JACOB refer to the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, ZION may also refer to these People, but probably refers to the place Israel.]
28From the standpoint of the gospel are (AT)enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (AU)the sake of the fathers;
[ they probably means the whole of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, but COULD mean only the broken off branches.]
[your is, again, the Gentiles.]
29for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
[ you is, again, the Gentiles.]
[ their Refers to that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32For (AX)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
[ all appears to refer to that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
33Oh, the depth of (AY)the riches both of the (AZ)wisdom and knowledge of God! (BA)How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34For (BB)WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
35Or (BC)WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
36For (BD)from Him and through Him and to Him are all things (BE)To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
[These last four verses show, among other things; that even if we do not fully understand the forgoing concepts God is in control, and has it all figured out.]
DG
[ partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel means, I believe, the branches which were broken off. Thus, ISRAEL, here, means iteral, physical, sons of Abraham.]
[ all appears to refer to that PART of the literal, physical, sons of Abraham, who were hardened by GOD.]
I'm not sure I saw the real answer to my question, so let me try again.
What did Paul mean when he wrote, "and so all Israel will be saved?"
Is it your view that every man, woman, and child physically descended from the loins of Abraham will receive eternal life?
When someone uses the name “Reagan” and the word “Right” in a sentence and doesn’t mean our 40th President, they are way, way, way to far down the echo chamber.
>> A remarkable number of people around here are able to ignore all the scriptural evidence that when the Jews as a people rejected Christ, God removed them from their place of special privilege, again as a people. <<
So all of God’s Old Testament promises are invalidated? If a salesman told you that you’ll get a $4000 rebate on a car, but then told you, “by ‘you,’ I meant Carl, here,” wouldn’t you call the salesman a liar? God is not a liar. Even though his people broke the covenant, God made very plain that he would keep his end of it.
How then to reconcile these? The Christian Church is the new Israel, but the Israel of old shall be restored as part of the Christian Church.
Gotcha. :-)
(I didn't title the article.)
20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
20:10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent [him] away empty.
20:11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated [him] shamefully, and sent [him] away empty.
20:12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast [him] out.
20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence [him] when they see him.
20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.
20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
No, as Paul tells us the promises were all made with Abraham and his Seed, Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16):
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.One needs to be “in Christ” in order to receive the blessing associated with any of the promises. (Gal. 3:28,29)
>>” What did Paul mean when he wrote, “and so all Israel will be saved?”
>>”Is it your view that every man, woman, and child physically descended from the loins of Abraham will receive eternal life?”
It says what it says. What will happen will happen.
my OPINION about it would be presumption, and would not affect the outcome in any way.
DG
Consider, however, the promises made through Hosea, Paul (in his letter to the Romans), Moses, Joshua, David, etc.
So, Paul was being vague or meaningless or what? We can't know for sure?
“All Israel” may just be referring to the remnant, as geologist was saying. See Romans 9:6,7.
Paul references the Hoses promise wrt the discussion of the remnant in Romans 9.
Ultimately these promises find their genesis in the promise made to Abraham as the father of many nations. And, as Paul tells us in Galatians, those promises were made with the Seed, Jesus Christ. There is no indication that any subsequent OT promises were independent of that original one.
>>” So, Paul was being vague or meaningless or what? We can’t know for sure?”
The 11th Chapter of Romans is perfectly clear, if one doesn’t attempt to make it fit any certain doctrine. If “all Israel will be saved” doesn’t include those whom God “hardened,” there would have been NO PURPOSE in writing rhe chapter.
verse 22: “...if you continue in His kindness...”
verse 23: “... if they do not continue in their unbelief...”
Seem to indicate that just as Gentile (Christians) might “fall,” so also might that part of Israel might “continue in unbelief,” even after the “partial hardening” is removed.
>>”“All Israel” may just be referring to the remnant, as geologist was saying. See Romans 9:6,7.”
I SHOULD have written “the sons of Jacob (re-named ISRAEL),” where I said “sons of Abraham.” My error.
How can it be “perfectly clear” on the one hand and yet all you can say about it is, “It says what it says. What will happen will happen?” If it’s perfectly clear, tell us what is meant by the phrase, “and so all Israel will be saved.” How are we to interpret Paul’s words regarding “all Israel.”
There are several possibilities:
1) Every physical descendent of Abraham regardless of their position in Christ.
2) Everyone who identifies himself with “Israel” regardless of their physical relationship to Abraham. This would include converts to Judaism over the past 2000 years
3) The remnant of Israel during the new covenant, those who are physically descended from Abraham who are positionally “in Christ,” from Peter and Paul to folks like Alfred Edersheim and Mortimer Adler.
4) Some future chronologically limited group of people descended from Abraham (e.g., so-called “tribulation saints”).
5) Others??
If the text is so clear, why are there so many choices?
so also might that part of Israel might “continue in unbelief,”
So, “all Israel” only means some of physical Israel, correct?
>>”If the text is so clear, why are there so many choices? “
YOU made up the list, none of which fits the actual text. Why should I choose one?
>>”So, “all Israel” only means some of physical Israel, correct? “
Of course, I didn’t say that. Pretending that I did makes your case look weak. Why not take the text as it was written, instead of trying to make it fit your doctrine?
DG
Remind me never to buy a used car from you.
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