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To: Mr Rogers
That is why no translation of the Greek uses ‘full of grace’ in that verse - because the Greek doesn’t say it.

According to Jerome, c. 400 A.D., it did. He translated it "gratia plena", and no one challenged it for 1100 years - not even Martin Luther - people who understood its meaning - and you're going to tell me that, all of a sudden - the people contemporaneous to the translation were all wrong?

But in no sense is this veneration (a feeling of awe, respect, etc.; reverence) by the angel for Mary.

The formal greeting of an angel to a lesser creature is the giveaway.

You are trying to switch from claiming the angel venerated Mary to worrying about WHY Mary was afraid. That allows you to dump an unsustainable position and create a false concern. The words, “Greetings, favored one” were the cause of her feeling troubled, but not of her fear - but she had fear, since the angel then told her not to be afraid.

Why is that a switch? They're not mutually exclusive dispositions. You're just spinning now.

It never occurred to me to connect fear to ‘full of grace’, so I had ZERO theological interest in pushing some position by saying she had fear - which she did, or else the angel wouldn’t say ‘Don’t be afraid’.

It doesn't occur to you because you don't understand the gravity of how the angel addressed her. But Mary did.

Acts 6: “ 8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.” And in Ephesians 1:5-6, all Christians are described using the same word.

Without going into too much detail, the word in Greek here is not "kecharitomene", but the phrase, "pleres charitos". Kecharitomene indicates completeness or perfection in grace, with a past, present, and future quality. "Pleres charitos" refers to a present-tense "filled" with grace, but the word does not imply perfection as "kecharitomene". The word "kecharitomene" is used nowhere else in the Bible but in reference to Mary. It's the equivalent of referring to, for example, a vehicle as "free of scratches" versus "pristine". "Pristine" is an unusual, infrequently used adjective that implies perfection, as kecharitomene implies a perfect amount of grace.

413 posted on 09/09/2009 10:09:42 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: Rutles4Ever

Yes, Jerome mistranslated it. Jerome wasn’t perfect.

“So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let’s find out.

1. The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear - “having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you.”
2. The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
3. American Standard Version - “And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.”
4. English Standard Version - “And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!
5. Today’s English Version - ‘”The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
6. King James Version- “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”
7. New American Standard Bible - “And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
8. New International Version - “The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.
9. New King James Version - “And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!
10. Revised Standard Version - “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!’
11. New Revised Standard Version - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
12. The New Century Version - The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
13. New Living Translation - Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!’”
14. The Cambridge Paragraph Bible - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, ‘thou that art ‘highly favoured, ‘the Lord is with thee: ‘blessed art thou among women.
15. The Holman Christian Standard Bible - “And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”
16. International Standard Version - ‘”The angel’’ came to her and said, “’Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!”

What does the Greek say here for “highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean “full of grace” which is “plaras karitos” (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek...

...Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.”

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/mary-full-grace-and-luke-128

Full of grace is used of Stephen, although full of grace is the correct Greek in that case as well. The word used in Luke 1:28 is also used of all believers in Ephesians 1.

Again, if you want a full discussion, I recommend reading this:

http://www.ichthys.com/mail-Mary-full-of-grace.html


416 posted on 09/09/2009 10:59:16 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Stop worshiping Mary and get back in step with sola Luginbill, mackerel-snapper!
418 posted on 09/09/2009 11:08:42 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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