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Pope Benedict, John Paul II, and Medjugorje [Catholic Caucus]
Renew America ^ | 8/21/2009 | Matt C. Abbott

Posted on 08/21/2009 1:25:49 PM PDT by markomalley

Does Pope Benedict view the alleged Marian apparitions of Medjugorje differently than Pope John Paul II did?

Yes, according to a recent interview featuring E. Michael Jones, a well-known American critic of the alleged apparitions. The interview has appeared in several Serbian journals.

In the interview, Jones asserts that when he met with Bishop Pavao Zanic, then-ordinary of the Diocese of Mostar (in which Medjugorje is situated) in 1988, the bishop said Cardinal Ratzinger agreed with him and did not believe the alleged apparitions were authentic.

But Pope John Paul II did not respond to Bishop Zanic in the same way. This would make sense considering certain seemingly pro-Medjugorje notes and letters JPII wrote to friends of his years ago, which I featured in my Dec. 1, 2007 column.

Below is the English translation of the E. Michael Jones interview:

    1. According to a report issued by the Vatican on Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI had defrocked the Catholic priest Tomislav Vlasic, responsible for establishing a cult of Our Lady in Medjugorje in Herzegovina. This happened 28 years after the first Medjugorje apparition and raises many questions. First, and as is known, the question of Medjugorje has been neglected by Vatican for such a long time. Does the new Pope have some new visions about this phenomena or some new facts, that is what has made him make such a decision?

    Jones: No, I don't think there has been any new information about Medjugorje for at least ten years. The main difference is the pope himself. When I met with then-ordinary of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, Bishop Pavao Zanic, in 1988, he told me that Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI, was in complete agreement that the so-called apparitions of Medjugorje were a hoax orchestrated by the renegade order of Franciscans in his diocese. Bishop Zanic then told me that he presented the same evidence to Pope John Paul II. 'And what did the pope say?' I asked. 'The pope said nothing,' Zanic replied. This confirms what I learned in my meetings with Cardinal Ratzinger. He was convinced that Medjugorje was a hoax from the beginning. The main reason for the inactivity in Rome was Pope John Paul II. The main reason for recent activity is Pope Benedict XVI, not new evidence.

    2. Stripping of rank is the most severe punishment for severe crimes. In this case they have been tolerated for 28 years. In the Middle Ages one could easily be burnt at the stake... Does the pope's decision mean that Vatican is determined to stop the whole story about Medjugorje or just to punish one of its culprits, one big Franciscan businessman?

    Jones: I think this is the first step in the Vatican's campaign to de-legitimatize Medjugorje. Anyone familiar with the story knows that the apparitions were the creation of two Franciscan priests: Tomislav Vlasic and Jozo Zovko. Children do not create world-wide movements generating millions of dollars a year in revenue.

    3. What do you expect to happen next?

    Jones: When the true story gets out, bishops across the world will begin to ban the 'seers' from their dioceses. This has already happened in the Diocese of Joliet, outside of Chicago. Ivan Dragicevic cannot longer show up in parishes their and fleece unsuspecting Catholics of their money.

    4. How will the Croatian bishopric react?

    Jones: The Croatian bishops in general will say that the findings on Vlasic confirm their verdict of 'non constat supernaturalite,' which was handed down in 1990. Bishop Ratko Peric will say that the defrocking of Father Vlasic will confirm what he and the late Bishop Pavao Zanic have said all along. Medjugorje was the invention of a renegade and rebellious group of Franciscan priests who have used this hoax to enrich themselves financially at the expense of unity in the Church and of good relations with the Orthodox.

    5. Apart from Franciscans, some other monastic orders have also supported Medjugorje. What will happen to them?

    Jones: Juridically, nothing will happen, but there will be widespread disillusionment when the denial that has been going on for so long becomes impossible to maintain any longer. Bishop Zanic said that the ultimate fruits of Medjugorje will be division and disillusionment in the Church.

    6. Medjugorje has to do with abuse of the psychological and spiritual state of the people from the areas suffering from poverty and faced with various turbulences. It was easy to manipulate with them, as testified by the earliest historical events all over the globe. In this case, huge amount of money were at stake, people even bequeathed their inheritances to the church, leaving their families without them. How will this problem be solved?

    Jones: If you're talking about donations to the rebellious Franciscans of Caplinja, Siroki Brijeg, Medjugorje, etc, those assets are held by the Franciscans in trust for the Church and could be appropriated by the bishop of Mostar. Whether they can be returned to the people who gave them under false pretenses is another matter. However, the real issue here is not Church law. The real issue is police enforcement of the law. When Bishop Peric when to Caplinja to talk to the rebellious priests there, he was physically assaulted. Neither the Vatican nor the bishop has a police force that can enforce canon law.

    7. If we look back, we can see that all through the history and in many regions, during turbulent times, social crises, insecurity, spiritual fall... take place, there are many more such things and phenomena attributed as miracles, salvation, etc. People believe in seeing saints on tree barks, there are stones in churches and monasteries which are only to be touched and one is saved from all troubles and sufferings... Does this happen today in developed and peaceful countries?

    Jones: It depends on what you mean by developed and peaceful countries. It certainly has happened in the United States. Why it happened is a matter of conjecture. In my book The Medjugorje Deception, I claim that Medjugorje was one of the sequelae to the cultural revolution which took place in the United States in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. When confronted with a Church that seemed determined to destroy itself, many Catholics sought refuge in what seemed to be a reassuring message which came directly from the Blessed Mother. The result of the Church's inadequate response to modernity was a host of phony apparitions, and of the Medjugorje was the most famous, largely because it corresponded in time to the Reagan Administration's eventually successful crusade against Communism.

    8. None of the pilgrims to Medjugorje have ever seen anything; there is always some medium who can see the Virgin Mary, whereas a large crowd of people 'communicate' with her, believe in what they actually don't see. Visions can be hallucinations rather than actual seeing, but all this goes so far so that the medium is glorified. What will happen to those media? It could happen that they now claim that they have seen Gospa again sending word to the Pope to bring the Franciscan back...

    Jones: First of all, I disagree with you when you say that the pilgrims who have gone to Medjugorje have ever seen anything. Shortly after the publication of The Medjugorje Deception, I got a call from a Unitarian from Boston who had gone to Medjugorje with a number of pious Italian ladies from Boston. He then related the following incident: While standing in his room waiting to go down to dinner, he saw a naked woman walk through the open doorway to his room. She then walked across the room and then walked through the wall. Medjugorje, I learned from a priest who heard confessions there for years, is infested with evil spirits. This charge came out one year ago when the bishop of Mostar released his dossier on Tomislav Vlasic. In addition to sexual improprieties, Vlasic was also guilty of trafficking in spirits. Hence, the demonic infestation at Medjugorje. As St. John of the Cross said, 'The devil rejoices when people seek private revelations.' That is so because they are so easy to fabricate.

    9. Based on some talks with some Croats and some reports, it can be concluded that Medjugorje is a mass movement which, on a subconscious level, excuses the bloody things done, mostly, against Serbs, but also against Gypsies and Jews, unfortunately, by certain number of Croats known as Ustashas? What is your opinion about this?

    Jones: There are many levels to the Medjugorje phenomenon, and one of them may very well be the collective guilt which the village felt because of its role in the massacre of Surmanci, which took place just on the other side of the apparition hill. There were also numerous links between the Medjugorje branch of the Franciscans and the Ustashe. I personally saw the pictures of Ustashe soldiers on the wall of the monastery at Siroki Brijeg when I visited there. Jozo Zovko deliberately injected a political note into the apparitions when he put the grb on the altar during the early celebrations of Mass at the time of the first apparitions in 1981.

    10. What is your opinion about the fact that some Croatian government officials have neglected, or even supported, Medjugorje? What is the importance of such a political support?

    Jones: Medjugorje was a crucial element in the resurgence of Croatian nationalism which led to the break-up of Yugoslavia. After the break-up the late Franjo Tudjman went to Medjugorje. From a nationalist point of view, it didn't matter whether the apparitions were genuine or not. What mattered was whether they could be mobilized politically. I do not know how the current Croatian government feels about Medjugorje or the still significant tourist revenues which it brings in. But I do know that in places like Split whenever I talked to Franciscans, I encountered skepticism about the apparitions. Medjugorje is an operation of one particular group of Franciscans who have had a long history of rebellious behavior and who are a disgrace to the Catholic Church.

    11. What do we do with Medjugorje? What do we do with the fraud lasting for 28 years now?

    Jones: All we can do is to continue to tell the truth. My hope is that the recognition of the truth about Medjugorje at the highest level of the Catholic Church will lead to reconciliation — particularly between Catholics and Orthodox in the Balkans — and the healing of the wounds which this hoax has caused.

    12. What you claimed 20 years ago and what you have proven in your book has been justified at the highest place by the Holy See. A nice satisfaction for your long-lasting work. How do you feel about it?

    Jones: I believe that the truth is great and that it will prevail. But in the meantime 28 years of inactivity on the part of Rome has allowed this lie to take root in parishes all across America (and in Europe as well). Uprooting that error after so many years of negligence is going to be a formidable task. On a personal level, I live in a diocese which allows advertisements for pilgrimages to Medjugorje to run in its diocesan newspaper. I live in a diocese which writes positive articles about each year's Medjugorje conference, also held in this diocese. The local bishop in fact was scheduled to concelebrate Mass with Jozo Zovko, even though Zovko's faculties had been suspended by both Bishop Peric and Bishop Zanic. So in terms of the local church, there is no recognition whatsoever on the part of the clergy or the laity that I was right about Medjugorje. Whether that will change is something I cannot predict, but as Christians we are told not to look for vindication in this life. Our reward is in heaven.

Interestingly, in addition to Medjugorje, it is evident that Pope Benedict has been treating the Legionaries of Christ scandal(s) in a different manner than JPII.

TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: bxvi; jpii; medjugorje
Just providing some information; not certifying it for accuracy or completeness one way or the other.
1 posted on 08/21/2009 1:25:50 PM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

thank you for the post.

2 posted on 08/21/2009 1:41:48 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (this slope is getting slippereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...)
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To: markomalley

Thanks Mark!

3 posted on 08/21/2009 1:55:49 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: markomalley

I don’t mean to demean or run down people who believe in this - I do not know enough about it to make any sort of judgement. For me though isn’t the faith we have enough? There is plenty enough in the Church to inspire and amase. Sometimes I wonder whether some of this stuff is a substitue for genuine hard earned faith.


4 posted on 08/21/2009 2:03:10 PM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: markomalley
I will also provide some information in the interest of presenting a differing perspective.

Vatican Did Not De-Frock Vlasic:
"Father Francesco Bravi told ZENIT today that the laicization was not imposed by the Holy See, but rather was in response to a request presented by Father Vlasic himself, to be dispensed both of priestly celibacy and his religious vows."

"He requested it," Father Bravi said, adding that, although Father Vlasic was the assistant pastor in Medjugorje when the first apparitions were reported, the priest has been living in Italy for more than two decades."

This action against ex-Fr. Vlasic has no relevance to Medjugorje!

The Real History of Fr. Vlasic

Issue of Objective Reporting

This information which completely discredits ex-Fr. Vlasic has been posted many times but seems to be ignored by the poster who reposts these same falsities. The Vatican has inserted itself into the investigation of Medjugorje and the Bishop of Mostar does not have the authority speak for its authenticity at this point. Time will tell but to those who "think this is the first step in the Vatican's campaign to de-legitimatize Medjugorje" may be wrong. Here's the Marian-Time's take:

Not illicit. Perfectly licit by Vatican decree via the Zadar declaration of 1991 and subsequent letter from Tarcisio Bertone. No crackdown. If anything B16 is cleaning house in preparation for Medjugorje's new status as Marian Shrine in the not too distant future.

5 posted on 08/21/2009 2:28:27 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: markomalley; kosta50

Thanks. Interesting and frankly encouraging article.

6 posted on 08/21/2009 2:29:55 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: melsec

Of course, the faith that we have in Jesus in more than enough...but I would not refuse a gift from Him either.

As for Medjugoria (sp) I was not Catholic when it began and very skeptical of Catholicism, yeah, I was just like a lot of your Catholic bashers on FR. I happened to see a video of the children during an apparition I was amazed. I couldn’t figure out how that could have been faked, yet I still don’t have a strong opinion about it.

7 posted on 08/21/2009 3:02:51 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: markomalley

I never believed in these alleged apparitions in Medjugorje, and that was before I ever read the opinion of Bishop Zanic. I always believed in Lourdes, Fatima, Our Lady of America, and many others (having diocesan approval) without hesitation, and it struck me that I just didn’t believe in this one.

What Zanic expressed years later, confirmed my reaction.

8 posted on 08/21/2009 3:36:55 PM PDT by Lauren BaRecall (I am only ONE of many real Jim Thompsons, yet I am ONE.)
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To: melsec
isn't the faith we have enough?

Absolutely! Belief in Medjugorje is not required to "inspire or amaze". However, for those of us who have had the blessing to experience it firsthand, it holds a special place in our hearts. It is not my experience that one who believes in the miracles of Medjugorje insists that others believe it also. It is a disappointment, and perplexing, though to see brothers and sisters in Christ who have not experienced it, attempt to demean, put it down and hope for its "de-legitizamation". I much prefer the perspective of Pope John Paul II (the Great):

"Yes, today the world has lost the sense of the supernatural. In Medjugorje, many seek and re-find this sense in prayer, fasting and confession."

9 posted on 08/21/2009 4:59:20 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: markomalley

I wish this group would take the word “Renew” out of their name. Will read everything later.

10 posted on 08/21/2009 6:21:34 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Servant of the Cross

Like I said I do not have the knowlege of it enough to judge and I do believe in the miraculous and have experienced some amazing and wonderful things first hand - I suppose what I was trying to say is that God is available where u are - the fact the people may experience things at a particular place or time is great - look for these things in your daily life, at church, in your local enviroment - God is there as much as anywhere else and the miraculous is always a possibility - I have even seen it through FR and the wonderful prayer warriors here.



11 posted on 08/22/2009 2:52:45 AM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: melsec

One of the things I hear all the time about Medjugorje is the so-called turning of the rosary into gold. I even saw one of them. I have no idea what was paid for it but it is talked about as a miracle.

Hello. It’s the medal they are using to make the rosaries and it is probably reacting to skin oils. I’m pretty sure if it was taken to a jeweler it would not be seen as real gold.

There is one writer who has pretty much made a living for the last number of years on books about Medjugorje.

Unless the church says this is true, I am extremely skeptical.

12 posted on 08/22/2009 7:24:35 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: melsec
Blessings and peace be with you as well!

My post was more for 'all' on the thread than you directly. You have not judged at all and I did not intend my post to suggest that you had.

13 posted on 08/22/2009 1:29:35 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: Servant of the Cross

I took no offense was just trying to give a better explanation of my thoughts.


14 posted on 08/22/2009 2:03:01 PM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

I’ll let the Church do the Devil’s Advocate stuff on this and I am sure they will be very, very thorough when they get around to putting something out about it!

At the risk of sounding almost pentecostal God is so wonderful to us and helps even the lowest and greatest to believe so I don’t discount the need for miracles or that they do happen but at the same time I am not the one to decide what is what - a healthy amount of scepticism is a good thing!


15 posted on 08/22/2009 2:09:26 PM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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