Posted on 08/11/2009 12:05:41 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Prophecy is a fascinating, compelling, and ever-so interesting field of study. It is history written in advance. When you get into it, and I mean really into it, you can see God’s will for the world and see his plan unfold in it. Understanding Bible Prophecy serves these functions.
1. It proves the validity of the promises of God. 2. It reminds us that God is in control. 3. It serves as an instrument for measuring the moral and immoral state of humanity. 4. It serves as a tool to prepare us for the Lord’s return, so that we will be ready both spiritually and morally when we meet him face to face. 5. We will reach a point when we all know that all we did after receiving Christ as our savior, telling others, and bringing up the hope that was in us was worth it.
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The “New Jerusalem” is not just a spiritual city, it is a literal city. In Revelation Chapter 21, verses 1 and 2 John explains the vision given to him regarding the future here on earth.
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Add to that the prophecy in Isaiah which states...
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.
Isaiah 9:6-7 (NIV)
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
—Isaiah 2:27 (KJV)
Jesus is supposed to reign and rule here on earth. That is the promise, that is the prophecy. It is after the Great Tribulation, Christ is supposed to return with all of those who accepted him as their savior to rule and reign on earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4).
The New Jerusalem comes after (Rev. 21:1-2). Jesus will sit in the modern Jerusalem after he destroys the Antichrist by the brightness of his coming. After that thousand year reign, the Devil will be unleashed, causing people to sin, and people will sin. In other words, “here we go again.”
Jesus will sit in the temple, in the Modern city of Jerusalem during the thousand years. The New Jerusalem comes after the thousand years as is the order that occurs in Revelation. The thousand years is mentioned in Revelation as occurring before New Jerusalem is placed on earth.
The re-emergence of the state of Israel in 1948 set in motion a mandate for the beginning of the rest of the Old Testament prophecies to be fulfilled. The modern state of Israel perfectly fits the description of being a burdensome stone in the last days (Zechariah 12:3). The political alliance between Russia, China, and Iran align effectively regarding the war of Gog and Magog mentioned in the book of Ezekiel. There are too many proofs. Not only that, but the most influential Jewish, Christian ministers recognize Israel as the fulfillment of prophecy.
Every effective prophecy scholar and every well known prophecy minister shares this view as well. It is the view adopted by Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, David Reagan, John Ankerberg, Jerry Falwell, Perry Stone, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, Ed Hindson, John Hagee, and many others. It was even supported by the late John F. Walvoord, David Breese, Zola Levitt—an Orthadox Jew turned Christian, and so many others. It is even taught at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Liberty University, etc. Its truth is enduring and has endured for over 60 years and is continuing to endure.
“Replacement theology” which is the position you seem to express, is the belief that God replaced his old covenant with Israel and established it with the church. There are many holes in replacement theology. Some have even used it as a means to justify their antisemitic prejudices.
Calling me a “futurist”—which is a term I’ve never heard of prior to this debate gives the impression to others that I, and people like me are just another sect, another division of an unsettled debate. When you incorporate the Bible with actual common sense and reason, they all compliment each other. God is the writer of natural law, and as such natural law has to compliment the Bible. There is only one truth. There is only one God, and when he demonstrates his POWER, like the way he did Israel from 1948-today, it is easy (for me anyway) to see God’s plan for the end times come to pass.
I know why the modern state of Israel exists. He will use it to prove to the world that he exists. They are also a nation that will have to endure fierce hardships that will cause them to come to faith in Jesus Christ and adopt him as their Messiah. Just as it is in a play, the stage has to be set and prepared before the actors come on stage. The actors are on stage, and they are in the process of moving the story towards the climax, and of course after the climax comes the grand finale.
I would like to address something that you stated in another post.
You Said:
Folks have been coming to Christ during the more horrific times of tribulation for 2000 years. It is the power of the gospel by the agency of the Holy Spirit preached by the faithful covenant people of God.
That’s true, however now, more than ever before, the Gospel is becoming corrupted, too many people (especially young people) have no desire to know the scriptures, much less give it the time of day, and have very little to no spiritual, moral, or ethical restraints in pursuing evil things. Thee Tribulation Hour will be a complete removal of the Holy Spirit as a restraining force, will leave human kind to its own devices, and will pour judgments on the earth, as well as allow the reign of the Antichrist so that the people of the earth will be forced to take a position, a pledge if you will, to give themselves over to Jesus Christ, or the Antichrist.
I explain this in deep detail in my piece called, “Will the World End?”
http://makingsense.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talked&action=display&thread=182
Spiritual as opposed to carnal. Earthly Jerusalem is the carnal city. The heavenly Jerusalem is spiritual (Gal. 4:25,26).
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (Heb. 12)The new Jerusalem presently exists and all believers in Jesus Christ are inhabitants. “But you have come …”.
The new Jerusalem does not come down to earth until after the Second Coming and general judgment of all men. Rev. 21 follows Rev. 20. There is nothing in the Bible about the new Jerusalem on earth prior to the eternal state of Rev. 21.
Jesus is supposed to reign and rule here on earth. That is the promise, that is the prophecy. It is after the Great Tribulation, Christ is supposed to return with all of those who accepted him as their savior to rule and reign on earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4).
There is nothing in Rev. 20 about Jesus reigning on the earth during the 1000 years.
The re-emergence of the state of Israel in 1948 set in motion a mandate for the beginning of the rest of the Old Testament prophecies to be fulfilled.
Modern Israel is a “just-so story” of futurism. There is no biblical evidence that modern Israel fulfills any specific biblical prophecy. I have pointed out from the Bible how modern Israel cannot be the fulfillment of prophecy because it does not meet the criteria for biblical Israel. See post 27.
“Replacement theory” (as it is wrongly called) is simply a true application of the NT understanding of Israel and the Church, i.e., one continuous people of God from the old covenant to the new.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Eph. 2)The NT tells us truly who are Abraham’s seed, those who have faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:28,29).9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2)
Some futurist dispensationalists, with their unbiblical, radical distinction between the Church and Israel, have created a boogeyman they call “replacement theology”. It’s mostly used to scare the followers of radical dispensationalism into thinking that the opposition are the new kids on the block. But it is false teachings of dispensationalism that are the new kids and have been opposed mostly from the day the idea was invented back in 1830.
The world will not end so much as be recreated at the last day. As the apostle Peter tells us,
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3)At the last day, “the day of the Lord”, Christ will come as a “thief in the night” and the heavens and earth will be changed, refined as it were by fire. Christ and His saints will inhabit the new heavens and new earth, and the unrighteous will receive their everlasting punishment in the lake of fire with Satan and his minions.
This “day of the Lord” is also the same day that Christ comes for His own (1 Thess 5:2-4; 2 Thess 2:1-3).
Sorry. I forgot the italics to indicates there are your words not mine.
But let me reiterate that 1948 did no such thing.
I do not think I have ever said anything about the Church “replacing Israel”. What a silly notion considering that most of the early Church was made up of ethnic Jews. That Christ brought the gospel to the Jews, many of whom believed. That the apostles worked very hard to break down the wall that separated Jews and gentiles to, as Paul described it, create one new man. That Peter called the Church a “holy nation”, harkening back to God’s description of Israel. That we members of the Church inhabit the “new Jerusalem”. Only a dispensationalist would see this as “replacing Israel” since their view of Israel is quite defective.
We have witnessed God’s covenant faithfulness to Jewish people for the last 2000 years who have embraced Jesus Christ.
Meanwhile, futurist dispensationalists invent theories about modern Israel to fit with their own faulty reading of the Bible. The faults are often big enough to drive a truck through, but rather than deal with the defects, they are content to label their opponents as a way to divert the discussions from the flaws in their theory.
But this is the off-sounded trumpet of dispensationalism; anyone that does not agree with us on Israel vis-à-vis the Church is probably a closet anti-Semite. It’s what happens when you do not have the biblical facts on your side, you just invent boogeyman names to reference your opponent.
It’s a tactic born, not of fact or truth, but desperation. It’s like playing in the race card in politics.
Maybe you can help me out here. I’ve been having this discussion with friends about the origin of the premillennial/chiliast view that you have outlined above; vis. that Christ will reign physically on the earth during the “1000 years.” I have always believed that certain of the ancient Fathers, like Justin Martyr, held such a view. I was challenged to rethink this idea.
So I recently went back and reread Justin and I must admit that such premil ideas do not exactly exist in his writings. E.g.,
But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chapter LXXX)Do you have any direct quotes from any church Fathers before modern times that places Christ physically on the earth during the “1000 years?”Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, ‘According to the days of the tree [of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound’ obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.’ (Dialogue, Chapter LXXXI)
Let me ask you a question. Where, geographically do you think the New Jerusalem will be located when it reaches earth?
You Stated:
There is nothing in Rev. 20 about Jesus reigning on the earth during the 1000 years.
1 John 3:2b
But we know that when he appears, we (those who have accepted Christ as their savior) shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (Text in parenthesis added)
Psalm 72:9-11
The desert tribes will bow before him and his enemies will lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him.
Psalm 2:9
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
Revelation 2:27
27’He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’
In your view, who or how would Jesus rule with an iron scepter if he is not supposed to reign on earth physically? This is during the thousand year reign of Christ because sin will still exist, but the Devil will be chained up, and won’t be trying to entice people with his powerfully strong, evil influence.
Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress,
my refuge in time of distress,
to you the nations will come
from the ends of the earth and say,
“Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods,
worthless idols that did them no good.
Daniel 7:14
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Daniel is a prophetic book regarding the nation of Israel and the prophecies that will pertain to its existence.
Micah 4:2
2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
When did this happen? Is this spiritual or literal? Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.
How about...
Zechariah 8:20-22
20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.’ 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him.”
Where would they “go at once to” if they can worship God where they’re at already in the spiritual sense? If God is everywhere, why would they need to go to him. In fact, when the New Jerusalem is hovering over the earth as it states in Revelation, only redeemed believers will be able to go to and fro. Since it is a pure and holy place, regular people who are still in sin would not be able to go directly there.
Zechariah 14:8-9
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
It makes perfect sense that the Lord will be king over the whole earth physically because the Lord will rule and reign. Buddha would not have the capability of showing himself because he has no power over death. The same goes for Muhammad, Confucius, any leader in Hinduism, and such and so forth. If Christ is present on earth, all of the other religions will be literally worthless and be evidently vain, moreso than they are right now. They will be worthless, as Christ is the only one who sits on earth.
Zechariah 9:10
10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the war-horses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Hmm. that sounds like he will rule on the earth, from sea to sea, to the ends of the earth. But wait, Revelation 21:1 says that there will be no sea.
Revelation 21:1
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
How is God supposed to reign from sea to sea and from the river, if there is no sea?
My answer would be, that Christ will rule for the thousand years (where there will still remain numerous seas), and then afterwards, when the New Jerusalem comes down, and there is no sea. What is your take?
Revelation 15:4
4Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
It takes the Holy Spirit and common sense to be able to “connect the dots” here. It is also interesting to note this one particular passage, which says....
Zechariah 8:23
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ “
When did this happen? How can it happen in your view, if the everything is completely spiritually transformed out of the blue? Also this is yet another verse that refers back to something I said earlier in this particular post. If God is everywhere, then why would people say this to Jews? My answer would be that Christ would be here physically and they would want to see him here physically. There is an impact when you see something physically. When people visit Israel, there is a sense of awe, a feeling of fulfillment, a sense of pilgrimage.
You Said:
I have pointed out from the Bible how modern Israel cannot be the fulfillment of prophecy because it does not meet the criteria for biblical Israel. See post 27.
It doesn’t have to at this moment in time. It wouldn’t make any sense for it to. The Antichrist can only make a covenant with an Israel that is in doubt, in a state of fear, and under intense political pressure (the way it is now is the perfect environment politically) to adopt a peace contract with him. Doubt, intimidating pressure, and force mixed with the fear of death, are all tests that serve as to how genuine one’s faith really is, and If Israel met the Biblical criteria, and they accepted the Antichrist, then what? They would either be sellouts, or they would not know what’s what in identifying their Messiah. They would be deceived. They could not accept the Antichrist if Revelation 3:10 holds any water, and if they did meet the criteria for Biblical Israel they would have accepted the son of God as their messiah, since the Son of God fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that identified him, and as such, would be taken out of the way, before the hour of temptation (Revelation 3:10), which is also the powerful delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) that will cause everybody who does not have Christ to fall for and be in a position where they would be most likely to accept the Antichrist. Even if modern Israel was as Christian as it can be right now, after the rapture, it would be as “secular” as it is at this moment.
How do some come to faith in God? In many instances people come to Christ through intense fear, tragedies, feelings of hopelessness, and a sense that this life, the way it is now, is worthless and hopeless. If modern, “secular” Israel is left to go through all of these things, it makes sense that the hour of trial, (or the Tribulation Hour) would prompt the Jews to come to faith as a nation. But through the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, the modern nation of Israel has been re-established, the desert in that area is now blooming, the ancient language has returned, and it stands out against all odds.
On another post, you might have, or someone else mentioned that the modern state of Israel doesn’t have a Gideon-style, David and Goliath Style scenario at play. I strongly disagree. Israel has practically the whole world against it as we speak, and I am including the United States as a result of the mid-east policies of this administration. Israel is considered a “burdensome stone” by the world community.
Psalm 83:4
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”
Zechariah 12:1-3
1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
Israel is a strong component relating to Bible prophecy. All the verses you report on in POST 27 are spiritual in nature, but you seem not to realize that God is not just restricted to the spiritual. He has promises that are related to the physical and the state of Israel is an undeniable proof that this is so. The re-emergence of the state of Israel and the recapturing of Jerusalem by the Jews serves as the beginning of the last days prophetic clock. When Jesus mentioned the parable of the fig tree, there were roots behind it.
Hosea 9:10a
10 “When I found Israel,
it was like finding grapes in the desert;
when I saw your fathers,
it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.
Answering Ephesians 2:11-22 and 1 Peter 2:9-10
I can’t disagree with that. In the Spiritual sense that is true. But you are not realizing that the Jews as a whole are far behind on this realization. Christians realize this, but the Jews do not. The orthadox Jews are still mired in the Old Testament for various reasons. They want to return to the Old Testament style rituals and practices that they did in their ancient days. Keep in mind that Christ’s appearance made this in vain, but as I said, they are behind in realizing this. When it all proves in vain, and when the antichrist declares himself God in the third temple, then all hell will break loose. Through the wrath God brings on the earth and man in his evil, selfish, and power hungry corrupt nature, all evil will be done in extreme and overwhelmingly bold measures. When the Jews realize that this was all done in vain and when word gets out (through the 144,000) that Christ is the Messiah, it is through this they will be caught up and realize the impact both spiritually and physically, and then by the time Christ returns, everything will be made known and the prophecy of Zechariah will come true.
Zechariah 12:10
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
On Dispensationalism and Replacement Theology
Everything I stated regarding the nation of Israel’s re-emergence in the last days is biblically based and spirit led. I work in produce and I am constantly reminded of this truth when I have to do the COOL (Country of Origin Labeling) procedures. If something comes from a specific country, I have to place a sticker on the sign that states which country those certain fruits and vegetables comes from. When I come across Israel, I am always reminded of Isaiah 35:1 and what Jesus said about the fig tree (Luke 21:28-30). Every time I look at that sticker, I feel a strong impact of awe as Bible prophecy is revealing itself to me at work, when my mind is not focused on it. Even Israel cites that the desert is blooming and bases it on Isaiah 35:11.
Take a Look at this article:
http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2009/02/zionism-making-desert-bloom-not-just.html
Israel’s coming into existence, whether it is a secular nation right now or not, indicated that the times from that point on were going to go in a downward spiral (spiritually, morally, and politically) on a global scale. It was an indicator that said that while Israel is a nation, watch for these other signs, for when they all happen simultaneously, then lift up your heads for your redemption draws near. Everything is right on schedule on God’s prophetic time clock, and he is in control of all of it. There are many angles and factors to consider, and from a spiritual sense, I really do understand your case. But my case is not just restricted to the spiritual. Everything physical has spiritual consequences and everything spiritual has physical consequences. That is where I am coming from.
Replacement theologians say that the church replaced Israel in its covenant, and as such, the Jews are irrelevant to anything related to prophecy. Israel and Jerusalem is God’s geographical property, and God made good on his blood covenant with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The blood covenant was the covenant God made with the people of Israel. That proves a physical covenant. The other blood covenant is as of right now spiritual. When you accept Christ as your savior, Christ’s blood washes away your sins and as such it allows you to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You are made pure by the blood of the lamb, Jesus. I think there is an interesting dynamic to consider; the physical blood covenant is proving itself at this moment. But the time will come when the physical and spiritual will align itself with the other, and then the remnant you spoke of will be restored in every aspect.
The Replacement Theology “Anti-Semite” Card
No. I am very familiar with desperate “last ditch efforts” to try and stay afloat when your argument is sinking and in mentioning replacement theology, I am in no ways pulling that last ditch effort.
In 1543 Martin Luther wrote a pamphlet called “Concerning the Jews and their Lies.” In a nutshell, he tries to make the case that God threw the Jews away like garbage and tried to make the case the Christians should overpower them and stop them from teaching Judaism. It was a very radical piece that dehumanized them and demonized people of Jewish descent. It was full of hate and made the case to call for vengeance against them. His rage was due to the fact that Jews continued to reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At first he was sympathetic to the Jews because he felt that the Jews were in opposition to the ever so evolving corrupt nature of the Catholic Church. But when they still rejected the Gospel regardless of the state of the Catholic Church, Luther totally lost it, as is grossly evident if you read his pamphlet.
An online version of his piece can be found at this link:
http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm
The view that the church replaced Israel was held by the early church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, and St. Augustine. Unfortunately their views stemmed from human nature and had nothing to do with spiritual. After all, Christ said that he laid down his life for us by his own accord.
John 10:17-19
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
(also see John 15:13)
But people, and in this sense, “Christians” seemed to ignore this passage and took it upon themselves to inflict punishment on the Jews for crucifying Christ and their motivation was most likely on account of their frustrations with them.
Since these early church fathers are highly respected and since prominent religions seem to hold their teachings in high regard, their teachings are still communicated and taught doctrinally. Of course because of tolerance, the strength of antisemitism isn’t as potent as it once was, but anti-semitism still exists.
I know somebody personally who attends my church and believes in replacement theology. In arguing people who hold this view, it prompted me to go into research mode to research the roots of this teaching. That’s why I mentioned it. It seems to parallel on the level of doctrine rather than me just coming out and using tactics of character assassination.
These views are very real and still exist, although they’re watered down by today’s standards. I personally am not a member of religion. Religion is a world system, and is runned much like a bureaucracy in the name of Christ, yet seeking control over people.
Seeing as how the heavens and earth are going to be re created, the question is unanswerable since we do not have all the information.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)The idea that the heavenly Jerusalem some how needs to correspond to the present (or past) earthly Jerusalem is a purely carnal notion.
You argue from a set of false premises, that which cannot be sustained by examining ALL of Scripture.
The term “replacement theology” is a boogeyman term invented by radical dispensationalists to scare their “true believers” from straying from the fold. It is often used by those who throw the term “anti-Semite” around. What it refers to, in reality, is anyone who disagrees with these radical dispensationalists on their errant views of Israel vis-à-vis the Church.
If you want to get off the propaganda treadmill and find out what some of us really believe, read Expansion, Not Replacemment.
The verses I used mention specifics and are cut and dry.
Jesus is going to return in Jerusalem before He rules and reigns. The battle of Armageddon is where the war will be raged against Him by the Antichrist. He will return and enter through the Gate.
You Mentioned:
The idea that the heavenly Jerusalem some how needs to correspond to the present (or past) earthly Jerusalem is a purely carnal notion.
God chose that particular area for a reason. Either way, it was created by Him, chosen by Him, and belongs to Him.
Expansion, Not Replacement
I’ll plan on reading that article, and if there is something I think needs to be challenged, I’ll mention it. I think that challenges on either side, although they may be frustrating, show that we are honoring the request to....
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction (2 Timothy 4:2).
That is correct. There is nothing in Rev. 20. In fact, there is nothing in all the NT suggesting Christ physically reigns on the earth during the “thousand years”. Since the NT is the infallible interpreter of the OT, we must look to it for the proper explanation of the older texts, including the prophecies. We must, first of all, find in them Our Lord Jesus Christ, since it is Him of which they principally testify (Luke 24:25-27).
So, as we look at the Scriptures you have offered we discover that none of the ones from the NT speaks of Christ reigning physically on the earth during the “thousand years” spoken of in Revelation 20. That is an assertion of futurists/premillennialists based on the way they approach the Bible.
In fact many of the NT Scriptures make no sense if you try to squeeze them into the premillennialist timeline, e.g., 2 Peter 10:
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
The Day of the Lord is Christ’s second coming. This world is going to experience judgment on that day (v. 7). It is described as a great melting away of the elements. There is no way to fit a “thousand years” on the earth into the biblical description of the end times.
And there is no need to.
We can also look at verses such as:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)
The futurist premillennialist needs to insert an artificial thousand years between verses 23 and 24.
Yet there is no need to.
In your view, who or how would Jesus rule with an iron scepter if he is not supposed to reign on earth physically? This is during the thousand year reign of Christ because sin will still exist, but the Devil will be chained up, and won’t be trying to entice people with his powerfully strong, evil influence.
The futurist contention is that the “rod of iron” in Rev. 2 is a physical implement used by Jesus during His alleged reign on the earth. Yet, there is nothing in the text that requires us to assume that interpretation. In fact, the entire context of the book of Revelation suggests such a view is false.
Revelation is self-described as a book of symbols (v. 1:1). Thus, it makes perfect sense to take the phrase “rod of iron” as such a symbol. The immediate context bears that out, “They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels”. Now, will the nations literally be dashed into shards of pottery? No, because they are not physically constructed of clay. It’s just a symbol of how Christ will deals with the nations.
Another example that show us the phrase “rod of iron” should not be taken literally is found in the opening chapter:
13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.Anyone who would take this as a physical description of Christ would be missing the point. The entire description is symbolic of Christ’s place of the nations. E.g., the “two-edged sword” is not literal, but rather an image of the word of God that Christ is wielding (Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12).
When did this happen? Is this spiritual or literal? Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.
I think you mean, “is it spiritual or physical?” It’s all literal. Some folks misconstrue the literalness of it. I would say it is certainly spiritual in that it points to the salvation brought to Jews and gentiles in Jesus Christ. We have all -- those who are in Christ -- come to the mountain of the Lord:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (Heb. 12)The NT describes earthly Jerusalem as a carnal city inhabited by the children of Hagar (Gal. 4). The true Jerusalem, the heavenly one, is the one inhabited by Christ and His children, the children of Abraham.
If you do not carefully read the NT and interpret the OT in light of the new, you will never get the right answer. That’s exactly what happened to the apostate Jews in Jesus’s day who were looking for a physical king on a physical throne. Unbelieving Jews still are. They refuse to read the complete revelation of God and so they continue to think in carnal, physical terms. Futurists have the same problem.
They are only cut and dry if we are forced to adopt your futurist system as a lens by which to interpret the Bible. E.g.,
God chose that particular area for a reason. Either way, it was created by Him, chosen by Him, and belongs to Him.
But we have no reason to think that area will even exist once the new heavens and earth are instituted ala 2 Peter 3:10. But perhaps you don’t get that. You are still thinking in carnal terms.
The Thousand Year Reign
Christ has to physically reign on earth for a thousand years and for these reasons.
1. He must rule with a rod of iron.
Foolish children need to be kept under control. There is no fear among children unless a disciplined and righteous authority figure is present. If you spare the rod, you spoil the child (Proverbs 13:4). Christ’s rod of iron is of course not a rod to spank people with, but scepters are what Kings have used for centuries. People do not fear God as a spiritual being. Add to that, people are brought up without any core principles. Everything is relative to them. God is the only one who defines truth and whose influence is the only one that can keep people at bay. People are too corrupt, and in many cases do corrupt things thinking that they are doing right. Add to that, when people expose the truth to them, they, deluded in their thinking, think of the truth teller as hatemongerers, or are stupid, ignorant, bigoted, and narrow minded. If Christ is on earth physically, not only would they know that the definer of truth is on earth, but they would also be afraid to do the very things they are doing right now without fear.
2. His Presence Will Eradicate False Gods
Since false gods are demonically inspired, God’s presence on earth cannot justify their being worshipped.
3. All Who do not believe in God through faith (like atheists or agnostics) will not have the excuses they have to not believe in God. Man looks for justifications not to believe in God. With a physical presence, that cannot be so.
4. As man in his selfish nature is driven by Satanic influence (as I think we are seeing right now) it is leading man to destroy one another and destroy earth.
It doesn’t make sense to have Satan bound for a thousand years and be released again to deceive the nations if God’s Kingdom is only limited to a spiritual one on earth. What about the many who refused Christ, or took the mark of the beast? Even if Satan (whom many people claim they do not believe in) is bound, then people will continue to sin because that is a part of their natural fallen nature, but Christ’s physical presence on earth will temper it. I believe that God will reign on earth physically, and people will still sin, but it won’t lead to them taking harsh actions the way it is now. If we are to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years then we will work within his government and be his representatives.
To be continued.....
1. He must rule with a rod of iron.
Is this a physical metal implement that Jesus is holding in His physical hand? Does He hold it up 24/7 during the entire thousand years?
2. His Presence Will Eradicate False Gods
Where is that listed in the Bible as characteristic of the futurist millennium?
3. All Who do not believe in God through faith (like atheists or agnostics) will not have the excuses they have to not believe in God.
Where does the Bible say that such excuses must be resolved during the futurist millennium?
4. As man in his selfish nature is driven by Satanic influence (as I think we are seeing right now) it is leading man to destroy one another and destroy earth.
What does this have to do with the futurist millennium when Satan is bound and completely powerless?
Again, these items are all contrivances, IMO. A person must accept more than what the Bible says in order for them to make any sense.
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