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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Does 841 - in context and in whole - not state that Muslims will be in Heaven with you, because they are followers of God?

It does not say that all Muslims will be. Some will be, perhaps, but it does not say that it is enough to be a follower of God in the Muslim sense and get to Heaven.

The only assured way to Heaven is sincere belief in Jesus as taught by the Catholic Church, which includes good works, baptism, a good confession as necessary, attendance at Mass and frequent Holy Communion. Without it, people ask for an extraordinary miracle (the Mass is an ordinary miracle) if they want to be saved.

Catholic meaning universal Church, not that headed by the Pope in Rome? Meaning Protestants and Orthodox would be part of that same Church?

The same chapter of the Catechism explains what it means. The Church or Rome is in an imperfect, but close union with the Orthodox Church, who has valid sacraments. The Protestant communties of faith do not, unfortunately, have such closeness and are not properly even churches. Several dogmas of Protestatism are not compatible with the Catholic Church and therefore one who follows these divergent dogmas cannot count himself as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church headed up by the Pope in Rome. However, let us not forget that religion is what we do, not what we profess. The important thing is to do the works that Christ asks us to do, and often Protestants do more to please Christ than Catholics.

if you really claim that only Jesus can offer salvation and know a man's heart, then state as much. Open up the Communion to all who wish to partake. It is between the man and Jesus, not the Church and man.

The communion is open to all who wish to study the teachings of the Catholic Church and be with Christ. It takes about a year to complete the formal conversion, and for a good reason it can be accelerated. Anyone who wishes to partake of the Holy Communion should not tarry to do so.

Additionally, we do not condemn a man to the fires of Hell (which MarkBsnr clearly showed is one of the rites of the Catholic Church);

But perhaps you should. Giving one over to Satan is clearly biblical (one of the letters to Timothy, I forget which, contains the prooftext). If you really believed what you believe, you would spare no effort to warn against wrong belief, both someone who holds them and those who might listen to him.

571 posted on 09/01/2009 3:49:13 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
It does not say that all Muslims will be. Some will be, perhaps, but it does not say that it is enough to be a follower of God in the Muslim sense and get to Heaven.

And how can that be? "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me". John 14:6. Jesus is the sole way. If you do not go through Jesus, you WILL not reach Heaven. Simple as that. Muslims - de-facto rejectors of the divinity of Christ - do not accept this.

Is the Catholic Church teaching that sometimes, someone who Christ has explicitly excluded, actually included in Heaven?

The only assured way to Heaven is sincere belief in Jesus as taught by the Catholic Church

Thus only the Church can guarantee your salvation; follow what the Church says, and you'll be OK. You are the gatekeeper. And this statement is in direct contravention of your explanation of 841.

Several dogmas of Protestatism are not compatible with the Catholic Church and therefore one who follows these divergent dogmas cannot count himself as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church headed up by the Pope in Rome.

Thus I am not part of the Church. And as a person outside the Church, I am most likely not saved, for only by being inside the Church am I assured of my salvation.

Go ahead and say it - Protestants aren't saved. It won't hurt my feelings since I rely on Christ and Christ alone for my salvation, not the dictates of a Pope or an institution of man. But I think it will do your own soul good to admit it openly.

The communion is open to all who wish to study the teachings of the Catholic Church and be with Christ.

I study the teachings of all Christian traditions, and I strive to walk with Christ every day (as best as my frailty allows). As an open and avowed Protestant who believes in Jesus' redemptive salvation, and strives to follow His words every day, would I be given communion alongside you, in your Church? I can take the host and the wine?

Giving one over to Satan is clearly biblical (one of the letters to Timothy, I forget which, contains the prooftext). If you really believed what you believe, you would spare no effort to warn against wrong belief, both someone who holds them and those who might listen to him.

1 Timothy 4:1-9 is probably what you are thinking about. We are called to avoid those who give themselves over to what is wicked, but we are not to sit in judgment of them. That is not our role. We should hold each other accountable (1 Tim 5:20), but that is challenging each other to "gut-check" what we are doing against the words and teachings of Christ.

NO MAN, group of men, or institution can determine a man's fate, or condemn him to Hell. That is Biblical. And that is opposed to what the Catholic Church teaches.

573 posted on 09/01/2009 4:14:59 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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