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To: annalex
It does not say that all Muslims will be. Some will be, perhaps, but it does not say that it is enough to be a follower of God in the Muslim sense and get to Heaven.

And how can that be? "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me". John 14:6. Jesus is the sole way. If you do not go through Jesus, you WILL not reach Heaven. Simple as that. Muslims - de-facto rejectors of the divinity of Christ - do not accept this.

Is the Catholic Church teaching that sometimes, someone who Christ has explicitly excluded, actually included in Heaven?

The only assured way to Heaven is sincere belief in Jesus as taught by the Catholic Church

Thus only the Church can guarantee your salvation; follow what the Church says, and you'll be OK. You are the gatekeeper. And this statement is in direct contravention of your explanation of 841.

Several dogmas of Protestatism are not compatible with the Catholic Church and therefore one who follows these divergent dogmas cannot count himself as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church headed up by the Pope in Rome.

Thus I am not part of the Church. And as a person outside the Church, I am most likely not saved, for only by being inside the Church am I assured of my salvation.

Go ahead and say it - Protestants aren't saved. It won't hurt my feelings since I rely on Christ and Christ alone for my salvation, not the dictates of a Pope or an institution of man. But I think it will do your own soul good to admit it openly.

The communion is open to all who wish to study the teachings of the Catholic Church and be with Christ.

I study the teachings of all Christian traditions, and I strive to walk with Christ every day (as best as my frailty allows). As an open and avowed Protestant who believes in Jesus' redemptive salvation, and strives to follow His words every day, would I be given communion alongside you, in your Church? I can take the host and the wine?

Giving one over to Satan is clearly biblical (one of the letters to Timothy, I forget which, contains the prooftext). If you really believed what you believe, you would spare no effort to warn against wrong belief, both someone who holds them and those who might listen to him.

1 Timothy 4:1-9 is probably what you are thinking about. We are called to avoid those who give themselves over to what is wicked, but we are not to sit in judgment of them. That is not our role. We should hold each other accountable (1 Tim 5:20), but that is challenging each other to "gut-check" what we are doing against the words and teachings of Christ.

NO MAN, group of men, or institution can determine a man's fate, or condemn him to Hell. That is Biblical. And that is opposed to what the Catholic Church teaches.

573 posted on 09/01/2009 4:14:59 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

***It does not say that all Muslims will be. Some will be, perhaps, but it does not say that it is enough to be a follower of God in the Muslim sense and get to Heaven.
And how can that be? “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me”. John 14:6. Jesus is the sole way. If you do not go through Jesus, you WILL not reach Heaven. Simple as that. Muslims - de-facto rejectors of the divinity of Christ - do not accept this.

Is the Catholic Church teaching that sometimes, someone who Christ has explicitly excluded, actually included in Heaven? ***

Jesus has instructed us that He has other sheep. It may be possible, but we cannot pin any hopes on it. We must follow His commands. We are commanded to bring the Gospel to all; we cannot teach that anyone may be excluded in any sense except if God decides.

***Several dogmas of Protestatism are not compatible with the Catholic Church and therefore one who follows these divergent dogmas cannot count himself as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church headed up by the Pope in Rome.

Thus I am not part of the Church. And as a person outside the Church, I am most likely not saved, for only by being inside the Church am I assured of my salvation.

Go ahead and say it - Protestants aren’t saved. It won’t hurt my feelings since I rely on Christ and Christ alone for my salvation, not the dictates of a Pope or an institution of man. But I think it will do your own soul good to admit it openly.***

Given your repudiation of swathes of the Gospels, I wouldn’t pin anything on supposed reliance on Jesus. We don’t know if individual Protestants are not saved; we cannot. We just know that outwardly, the signs are mostly not in alignment with Scripture and the Church.

***I study the teachings of all Christian traditions, and I strive to walk with Christ every day (as best as my frailty allows). As an open and avowed Protestant who believes in Jesus’ redemptive salvation, and strives to follow His words every day, would I be given communion alongside you, in your Church? I can take the host and the wine?***

If you do not believe in the transubstantiation of the host and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus (literally), then, as St. Paul said, you endanger yourself by taking it unworthily. If you believe that and are brought into the Faith, then you would be welcomed with open arms.

***NO MAN, group of men, or institution can determine a man’s fate, or condemn him to Hell. That is Biblical. And that is opposed to what the Catholic Church teaches.***

I detect false witness here. Wrong.


577 posted on 09/01/2009 4:40:37 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
If you do not go through Jesus, you WILL not reach Heaven. Simple as that. Muslims - de-facto rejectors of the divinity of Christ - do not accept this.

That is correct, but again, it is the moment of death and life of good works that will count, not the falsity of religion.

If a Muslim goes to his death professing the Jesus is not divine and did not die for our sins, as his false religion teaches, then of course he will not be saved. But if he dies relying on the mercy of God as he knows Him, then he is not denying Jesus, and then, who knows, Jesus might know him and save him, even if he does not know Jesus. If that Mulsim is saved, then it is through Jesus the sole mediator of salvation that he is.

direct contravention of your explanation of 841.

841 speaks of who MIGHT be saved. It does not speak of who is assuredly saved. The people who are assuredly saved are infants, and people who have a sacramental absolution of their sins, and received the last rites.

Go ahead and say it - Protestants aren't saved

For the fifth time: you are confusing your present beliefs and your future salvation. Protestants are not assured of their salvation. As a practical matter, Catholics are not assured of their salvation either, but for a different reason: a Protestant has no sacramental life to save him ordinarily, and the Catholic may not die a good death in the hands of a priest. I, Catholic, may die in pain cursing God because of some accident tomorrow, and I won't be saved.

Yet, Protestants, and Muslims, MAY be saved even contrary to their present erroneous beliefs, as the Catechism so clearly teaches.

would I be given communion alongside you, in your Church?

As a practical matter, yes, because no one will check your papers as you approach the Host. But you should not present yourself unless you formally convert to Catholicism, because, as St. Paul teaches, you will only work a condemnation on yourself. Before you take communion you must be interiorally in communion. Now you are not. You, for example, think that professions of faith alone save you. That belief places you outside of the communion. But, you are welcome to come to it, the path is clear.

1 Timothy 4:1-9 is probably what you are thinking about

1 ...faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. 20 Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered up to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1)

Compare that to the anathema rite.

578 posted on 09/01/2009 4:43:44 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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