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To: annalex
"Plan of salvation" is not assured salvation. It is a plan, but not "all that is needed". Even nonbelievers are in the plan (836). You read one thing and presume another regarding 841. If oen is called, one is in the plan, and everyone is called. The issue is, who responds to the call properly.

Does 841 - in context and in whole - not state that Muslims will be in Heaven with you, because they are followers of God?

As One Holy Catholic and Apostolic, as per the Nicene Creed.

Catholic meaning universal Church, not that headed by the Pope in Rome? Meaning Protestants and Orthodox would be part of that same Church?

But you must agree that it is not an easy to grasp doctrine even if it were taught properly.

It is confusing because it is a dogma of man, not of God. It really is simple: if you really claim that only Jesus can offer salvation and know a man's heart, then state as much. Open up the Communion to all who wish to partake. It is between the man and Jesus, not the Church and man.

My own denomination - Free Methodist - practices open communion. Anyone who wishes can partake. It is not our role or ability to control who can participate in the sacrament. It is between God and the person.

Additionally, we do not condemn a man to the fires of Hell (which MarkBsnr clearly showed is one of the rites of the Catholic Church); if someone is causing strife or acting in what we believe is direct contradiction to the teachings of the Bible and refuses to repent, we ask him to leave the Church, but do not "yank his Heaven pass" like ex-communication.

He's asked to go worship elsewhere for the betterment of the local congregation and for his own spiritual health. But we do not state he is lost; that is for God and God alone.

But then, if this policy of open communion and "we do not decide who is and isn't saved" was truly followed, then the control is no longer left in Rome, so surely the early Church could not allow that! So the Catechism was created to dictate and maintain control over the masses.

And over time, as the Church became the accepted "gate to Heaven", and the dogma of infallibility was strengthened, the Church finds itself having to defend the indefensible, so twisting itself to let in Christian-slaying Mohammed but denying Christ-loving Arne.

The need for control by the early and middle aged Catholic Church became the justification for restriction, even if not Biblical, even if confusing and misleading to those truly seeking Christ. Men used the Church for their own betterment, and the Church never corrected for that.

I don't think very many Catholics are trying to deceive you on purpose. I sure don't.

You are most assuredly correct; however, the teachings of the Catholic Church, and its placing itself as the arbiter of salvation (one that is infallible at that) is the font of all misunderstanding related to salvation.

If the rank-and-file Catholics are confused, there is no other place to lay blame but at the foot of Rome. The problem is how do you correct clearly non-Biblical teachings when those teachings have been deemed inerrant?

The Church's desire to be inerrant and infallible is its own greatest stumbling block; they are the twin sins of pride and jealousy. Pride because it cannot admit its own mistakes (take for example the continued refusal to outright admit the sins of the past) and inherent fallibility, and jealousy because it seeks to be the object of worship and salvation rather than God.

569 posted on 09/01/2009 3:28:15 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Does 841 - in context and in whole - not state that Muslims will be in Heaven with you, because they are followers of God?

It does not say that all Muslims will be. Some will be, perhaps, but it does not say that it is enough to be a follower of God in the Muslim sense and get to Heaven.

The only assured way to Heaven is sincere belief in Jesus as taught by the Catholic Church, which includes good works, baptism, a good confession as necessary, attendance at Mass and frequent Holy Communion. Without it, people ask for an extraordinary miracle (the Mass is an ordinary miracle) if they want to be saved.

Catholic meaning universal Church, not that headed by the Pope in Rome? Meaning Protestants and Orthodox would be part of that same Church?

The same chapter of the Catechism explains what it means. The Church or Rome is in an imperfect, but close union with the Orthodox Church, who has valid sacraments. The Protestant communties of faith do not, unfortunately, have such closeness and are not properly even churches. Several dogmas of Protestatism are not compatible with the Catholic Church and therefore one who follows these divergent dogmas cannot count himself as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church headed up by the Pope in Rome. However, let us not forget that religion is what we do, not what we profess. The important thing is to do the works that Christ asks us to do, and often Protestants do more to please Christ than Catholics.

if you really claim that only Jesus can offer salvation and know a man's heart, then state as much. Open up the Communion to all who wish to partake. It is between the man and Jesus, not the Church and man.

The communion is open to all who wish to study the teachings of the Catholic Church and be with Christ. It takes about a year to complete the formal conversion, and for a good reason it can be accelerated. Anyone who wishes to partake of the Holy Communion should not tarry to do so.

Additionally, we do not condemn a man to the fires of Hell (which MarkBsnr clearly showed is one of the rites of the Catholic Church);

But perhaps you should. Giving one over to Satan is clearly biblical (one of the letters to Timothy, I forget which, contains the prooftext). If you really believed what you believe, you would spare no effort to warn against wrong belief, both someone who holds them and those who might listen to him.

571 posted on 09/01/2009 3:49:13 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

***Additionally, we do not condemn a man to the fires of Hell (which MarkBsnr clearly showed is one of the rites of the Catholic Church); ***

I did not show anything of the kind; I showed what that wording actually meant. No man has the authority to condemn another; additionally no man has the ability to determine if one is condemned.

Further, it is considered good manners to ping those whom you write negative things about.


576 posted on 09/01/2009 4:32:53 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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