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To: PugetSoundSoldier

***Then this illegitimate spawn of evil knows the Catholic Church’s teachings a whole lot better than you. ***

Goody. Then let us look at things a little more closely.

*** We believe, based upon certain criteria that we can state some of those who are eternally saved (ie the Saints in Heaven), but there is no Catholic belief that leads one to believe that somebody in particular is going to hell.***

Notice: somebody in particular. We understand that there are conditions which condemn a man but we have no particular knowledge of or the ability to condemn a man.

Formal excommunication involves the following: While “minor excommunication” could be incurred by associating with an excommunicate, and “major excommunication” could be imposed by any bishop, “anathema” was imposed by the Pope in a specific ceremony described in the Pontificale Romanum. Wearing a purple cope (the liturgical color of penitence) and holding a lighted candle, he, surrounded by twelve priests, also with lighted candles, pronounced the anathema with a formula that concluded with the words:

Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive (Name) himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.

The priests respond: “Fiat, fiat, fiat” (Let it be done), and all, including the pontiff, cast their lighted candles on the ground. Notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been thus excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church.

Notice that the Church still calls on the man to repent of his sins and rejoin the Christian brotherhood. The Church does not condemn a man.

Now to: ***Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

The Catholic Church teaches that one is saved only through the Catholic Church, and that if you do not stay in the Catholic Church, you cannot be saved. ***

Notice here that the wording is that one is saved through Christ who Body is the Church and those who know that and still reject it and do not repent before coming before Him are believed to be damned. We do not know one man who fits this: we may think or hope that men who are evil in life may be condemned, but neither the Church nor any man knows.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says: Still the anathema maranatha is a censure from which the criminal may be absolved; although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, the Church, in virtue of the Power of the Keys, can receive him once more into the communion of the faithful. More than that, it is with this purpose in view that she takes such rigorous measures against him, in order that by the mortification of his body his soul may be saved on the last day. The Church, animated by the spirit of God, does not wish the death of the sinner, but rather that he be converted and live. This explains why the most severe and terrifying formulas of excommunication, containing all the rigours of the Maranatha have, as a rule, clauses like this: Unless he becomes repentant, or gives satisfaction, or is corrected.

In other words, we must do what we can to bring all men to God, but it is God that does the Judging.

Let us now go to the following paragraphs:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338

The question might be: is the self labelled Christian ignorant of the Gospel? I know many loudly Christian individuals (and that includes many Catholics) that are ignorant of very Gospel that they claim to know. Many are like the eunuch before meeting Timothy.

Regarding point 841, there are some theologists that give support to the idea that Islam is a Christian heresy and that since they claim to worship the God of Abraham, they are linked to us however imperfectly.

***Is it a heresy to deny the mariology taught by the Catholics? If the answer is yes, then your own teachings - the Catechism - state that the Orthodox and Protestants are not saved, because we knowingly reject that teaching, and thus are heretics, not allowed to be part of the Church, and thus not saved.

Put the pretty words you want, but your own Catechism is quite explicit; those who do not give heed to the Catholic Church are summarily cut off from salvation - condemned to hell.***

As I have shown, the Church condemns nobody to hell and that genuine heresy must occur in those who know the Gospel of Christ.


561 posted on 09/01/2009 1:54:35 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

***As I have shown, the Church condemns nobody to hell and that genuine heresy must occur in those who know the Gospel of Christ.***

Correction: heresy can only occur if one already knows the Gospel of Christ and chooses to believe something seriously opposed to it and the Church (the Body of Christ).


563 posted on 09/01/2009 2:23:03 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
There are a lot of pretty words you wrote for the betterment of this evil, illegitimate Christian, but you betray your own writings:

Notice that the Church still calls on the man to repent of his sins and rejoin the Christian brotherhood. The Church does not condemn a man.

Which you used to "clarify" your quote of the anathema:

we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate

So the Pope and his 12 priests gather together with candles and robes of color, and chant and CONDEMN TO ETERNAL FIRE WITH SATAN those who are considered seriously ex-communicated.

If that is not the Church directly and openly condemning a man to Hell, then what the hell is? Did you not read the words which you quoted?

And you never addressed 846. It is extremely explicit:

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Are you willing to state categorically that you believe a non-Catholic Protestant can and be fully saved and enter into Heaven? Knowing full well that Protestants are considered heretics by the Catholic Church?

A simple yes or no is all that's needed. Sophistry to shade your answer or deflect isn't beneficial to the conversation.

565 posted on 09/01/2009 2:47:52 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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