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To: PugetSoundSoldier; kosta50

***I understand that; however, my understanding is that the Orthodox would not condemn me to hell; the Catholic would.***

No Catholic believes this. One man cannot ‘know’ the state of another’s soul; that is in God’s hands.

We believe, based upon certain criteria that we can state some of those who are eternally saved (ie the Saints in Heaven), but there is no Catholic belief that leads one to believe that somebody in particular is going to hell.

And the condemnation, we believe is actually of the individual; God merely confirms it at the Judgement.


548 posted on 09/01/2009 8:33:54 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

I meant to say of the individual by the individual. It is not God who condemns; God merely confirms.


549 posted on 09/01/2009 8:35:28 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; PugetSoundSoldier; kosta50

Thanks, Mark.

The Church is not in the business of condemning individuals to hell. Heretical beliefs are condemned, and individuals who promulgated the heresy are condemned for the defect of their belief. That process is called anathemization: a proclamation that a belief is a grave error and if practiced, in whoever practices it, endangers the salvation of his soul. Hopefully, the anathema serves as a warning to the heretic to come back to the Faith and reach salvation. It is a tool of salvation, rather than condemnation.

Anathemas can be lifted, upon certain conditions.

Nor is it unique to the Catholic Church. The Russian Orthodox Church, for example, anathemized, and rightly, Count Leo Tolstoy for his vaguely Quaker beliefs.


551 posted on 09/01/2009 9:40:43 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: MarkBsnr; PugetSoundSoldier
And the condemnation, we believe is actually of the individual; God merely confirms it at the Judgement

What is being taught today in both sides of the Church is that it is a choice which God acknowledges. I wouldn't even call it a "condemnation," because it is, after all, a choice of the "condemned." This is what they did, knowingly and willingly.

In other words, if you see signs along the highway that say "This way to heaven" and a traffic cop pointing in that direction and you ignore them it is hardly a "condemnation" if you miss the exist and end up somewhere else.

However let's not forget that, while this may seem fair and reasonable and just to the human mind, this is hardly the biblical view of the final decision.

The Church also vehemently teaches that it is God who saves, not us, that salvation cannot be earned or worked for. Yet this is not fully consistent either because salvation, as taught by the Church, is not an 'act' of God as much as it is a result of man's cooperation with God.

Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is seen as freeing man to be able to follow God freely, in other words—to take the right exist, by choice and on his own will, without coercion, being pulled by the ring in his nose, or a divine tractor beam attached to his forehead.

I think Matthew 25 also distinguishes 'going through the motions' and genuine intent. In other words, it is not enough to just believe, or volunteer in soup kitchens, or tithe, or receive the Eucharist every Sunday, but whether it is genuine and from the heart and with pure intent, not in order to score another point.

Saved are those who do good who do not think of or even know nothing of salvation and going to heaven, who do not count on it, who do not do so to please the Church, God, society or themselves, but for the sake of righteousness and nothing else. The intent must be pure and selfless.

Of course, there is a problem what righteousness is and how do we know our sense of righteousness is not corrupt. But that's another issue.

552 posted on 09/01/2009 9:48:44 AM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: MarkBsnr
We believe, based upon certain criteria that we can state some of those who are eternally saved (ie the Saints in Heaven), but there is no Catholic belief that leads one to believe that somebody in particular is going to hell.

Then this illegitimate spawn of evil knows the Catholic Church's teachings a whole lot better than you.

Please see Catechism 846:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

The Catholic Church teaches that one is saved only through the Catholic Church, and that if you do not stay in the Catholic Church, you cannot be saved.

Is it a heresy to deny the mariology taught by the Catholics? If the answer is yes, then your own teachings - the Catechism - state that the Orthodox and Protestants are not saved, because we knowingly reject that teaching, and thus are heretics, not allowed to be part of the Church, and thus not saved.

Put the pretty words you want, but your own Catechism is quite explicit; those who do not give heed to the Catholic Church are summarily cut off from salvation - condemned to hell.

Your Church will grant salvation to Muslims (see 841) while denying salvation to any who reject your mariology. Kosta50 and I are - according to your own Catechism - beyond salvation outside of your Church. According to your Catechism, while Kosta50 and I burn in Hell, Muslims and Catholics will be in Heaven praising God.

553 posted on 09/01/2009 10:50:29 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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