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To: kosta50
You would find that the Orthodox and Catholics stand united in disagreeing with you here. Having been voted somoene's favorite Bible skeptic on the FR, even I would have to disagree with you on that one. :)

I understand that; however, my understanding is that the Orthodox would not condemn me to hell; the Catholic would.

545 posted on 09/01/2009 3:21:04 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the Defense of the Indefensible)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
I understand that; however, my understanding is that the Orthodox would not condemn me to hell; the Catholic would

I believe that the post-Vatican II Catholic Church would probably not do that. :) It has been the position of the Latin Church since the Vatican II that those who reject the teachings of the Church cut themselves off from the life-giving mysteries (sacraments) of the Church and therefore incur self-excommunication.

In other words, either you receive the Eucharist unworthily (in the Catholic theological sense) or you stop receiving it all on your own because you no longer participate in the life of the Catholic Church, and (the belief is) God will count you as no longer of his own.

The Orthodox Church, on the other hand, will deny you the Eucharist if the Church knows of anything that you do or believe or profess that is contrary to the Church.

Nancy Pelosi and Joe Bidens in the Orthodox world would not be receiving the Eucharist, trust me. But you are right that the EOC is not and has never been in the business of condemning anyone to hell. That was never part of the declaration of heresy in the undivided Church but rather a Cathoic innovation after the Schism.

The East has never believed in God who condemns. Matthew's Chapter 25 (verse 31-end) speaks of those who have condemned themselves, by choosing not to follow Chirst. It is clearly presented as a choice. The choices you make are believed to carry consequences in the end. If you choose a life of sin, if you only go through the motions (fake it, tyr to fool God) then God will grant you your wish and "honor" your choice.

If you want to leave, God will not force you to stay, for forced love is no love. You can't make someone love you; love, by definition has to come from the heart. God-man relationship has to be genuine, respecting man's freedom that God granted him.

547 posted on 09/01/2009 8:17:55 AM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier; kosta50

***I understand that; however, my understanding is that the Orthodox would not condemn me to hell; the Catholic would.***

No Catholic believes this. One man cannot ‘know’ the state of another’s soul; that is in God’s hands.

We believe, based upon certain criteria that we can state some of those who are eternally saved (ie the Saints in Heaven), but there is no Catholic belief that leads one to believe that somebody in particular is going to hell.

And the condemnation, we believe is actually of the individual; God merely confirms it at the Judgement.


548 posted on 09/01/2009 8:33:54 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
my understanding is that the Orthodox would not condemn me to hell; the Catholic would.

If you do some research you would find the Catholic Church is less likely to condemn a protestant or a muslim etc... or any other religion as much as a cafeteria Catholic who knows Church teaching and rejects it.

The Catechism details the "natural law" pretty well. Basically, God has written onto our hearts the Law of Love. Even a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ can "know" this law. If a person loves, He abides in Christ. 1 John makes that statement several times. We know that we can do nothing good without Christ abiding within us. Thus, when a person who has never heard of Christ can listen to that divine natural law printed inside of us - and the Spirit blows where He will. Thus, a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ CAN be saved - because they are not specifically rejecting Him - AND they ARE following His Law of Love - which is the summary of the Commandments, says James. The Catechism refers to the Muslims - Some have not heard the truth of the Gospel, so they cannot reject it. They have been presented a scare crow by their mullahs, so they are considered invincibly ignorant (as the Catechism calls them and other such people). A person will not go to hell if he is invincibly ignorant and loves others.Many Muslims in extreme Muslim area's of the world don't know Jesus Christ and the Gospel. They haven't been presented it. So how can they reject it? They only reject a scare crow, much like anti-Catholic's who don't know Catholicism.

There is only one person by whom men can be saved through: Jesus Christ. And He sends His Spirit to those whom He will. Christ said that NO ONE can do good without ME. NO ONE. Thus, when you see a good Muslim, or a good Hindu, what's the explanation? God's Spirit is working through the natural law written on that person's heart. He is saved through Christ, even though He doesn't know that Jesus rose from the dead.

I hope this help you clear things up in your understanding of Catholicism,dear friend.

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

572 posted on 09/01/2009 4:07:24 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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