Posted on 08/07/2009 9:00:03 AM PDT by Teófilo
I certainly hope, for the sake of the Bible, that the Holy Spirit would have guided the Church, but for fasting rules, making eggs non-fasting and lobster fasting, I seriously doubt that!
Christ is the foundation.
It is small minded to believe that Christ gave the power to bind and loose for half a generation.
On a quick skim this jumped out...
12: “While Catholics would say that the “end of man is to serve God in this life to be reasonably happy in this life and completely happy in the next...””
It looks like something a kid made up.
Catholic Catechism:
460 - The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
1129 - “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. **The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.**”
“The consequences of such a view are rich, unfathomable, and rarely studied by Catholic Christians.”
That’s news to me...
HOLY MASS:
The Offertory at Mass, in both the old and the new Roman rite, contains the prayer:
“By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”
If we did not share in his divinity, then there would be only actual grace. But from Baptism onwards we receive Supernatural Graces—graces above our human nature.
If we did not share in his divinity, then we would be capable of only human faith, hope and charity as a result of our own strength of character. But we receive Supernatural Virtues— Faith, Hope and Charity by the power of God.
If we did not share in his divinity, then we would receive only his humanity in Holy Communion. But we receive the whole Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
1 Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.
In order to become bishops, only another bishop can consecrate them.
You don't make a bishop out of an apostle...That would be like you guys making a cardinal out of your pope...
Act 12:25 And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Paul was aleady doing the work in Jerusalem that you are claiming was the work of a consecrated bishop...So your theoretical argument doesn't fly...
Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Prophets and teachers...No bishop or apostle layed their hands on Paul and consecrated him...Prophets and teachers...It could have been youth ministers and the youth...
You're missing the point and twisting it into something else...The confirmation (not to be a bishop but to proceed on another mission) was the witness of third parties receiving the message of the Holy Spirit as it pertained to Paul and Barnabas...
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Act 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Act 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
In other words, don't confuse the issue with God's word, the scripture...We've got our minds made up regardless of the facts...Ha....
Thanks! I’ve been there several times!
It looks like something a kid made up.
Actually, it was Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr.
I did clarify that on another post on the thread.
Thank you for the quote from the CCC. I don't think that it denies my assertion though. Whether the Orthodox say it, or we say it, the truth of the matter is that we don't reflect on what this "partaking of the divine nature" means as much as we ought to.
-Theo
***I certainly hope, for the sake of the Bible, that the Holy Spirit would have guided the Church, but for fasting rules, making eggs non-fasting and lobster fasting, I seriously doubt that!***
Hard to say. The Church is the Church.
***In order to become bishops, only another bishop can consecrate them.
You don’t make a bishop out of an apostle...That would be like you guys making a cardinal out of your pope...***
Two statements and two errors. About par for the course.
The Apostles were the first bishops. The Pope is not a cardinal, although he may have been prior to his selection.
***Act 12:25 And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Paul was aleady doing the work in Jerusalem that you are claiming was the work of a consecrated bishop...So your theoretical argument doesn’t fly...***
What work? Preaching does not require ordination to the rank of bishop. No theory here.
***Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Prophets and teachers...No bishop or apostle layed their hands on Paul and consecrated him...Prophets and teachers...It could have been youth ministers and the youth...***
Do you really know so little about the early Church? Youth ministers and the youth? What are you talking about?
***You’re missing the point and twisting it into something else...The confirmation (not to be a bishop but to proceed on another mission) was the witness of third parties receiving the message of the Holy Spirit as it pertained to Paul and Barnabas...
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Act 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Act 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.***
Very good. You at least have Scripture. Now if only you could understand what it means. Ananais baptized Paul with a dry baptism. Barnabas was a bishop of the Church and he laid hands on Paul to ordain him as bishop.
***Don’t worry. Jesus left us His Apostolic Church; and He will be with us and it until the end. We’re okay with that.
In other words, don’t confuse the issue with God’s word, the scripture...We’ve got our minds made up regardless of the facts...Ha....***
Iscool, you’ve proven over and over again that your perception of Scripture is out of the year 2009 in the little Church that you attend in the culture that you exist in. The early Church in the first century AD did not have all those things that you take for granted and expect as a part of everyday life. The early Christians, mostly drawn from the lower classes were nearly 99% illiterate. Journeys of more than 50 miles per day did not exist except for the military messengers going from post to post for fresh horses. The few literates took months to copy out any literature by hand, including Scripture.
In this time, there were as many as 80 Gospels (for instance) floating around. Many of the individual churches did not have the entire package of what we consider Scripture for decades or centuries.
But even with Scripture settled for 1600 years, you repeatedly post a reasonable misunderstanding of Scripture on a regular basis.
They were rejected by the Orthodox laity.
So the theological decisions of the bishops are subject to the approval of the laity? In the Catholic Church it is the other way round! This is a notable difference.
I find the way the article says that the west has been too influenced by St. Augustine to be quite interesting. Perhaps Augustine’s legalistic bent of mind has influenced the western church a bit too much, I don’t know, but it bears learning more about.
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