Nora Lozano
Posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:11 PM PDT by NYer
EDE, Netherlands (ABP) -- A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus.
Nora Lozano
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Lozano, a participant in theological conversations between the Baptist World Alliance and the Vatican, made the remarks in a presentation to the BWA Commission on Doctrine and Interchurch Cooperation at a meeting of global Baptists in the Netherlands.
She noted the Mexican story of the Virgin of Guadalupe -- a purported apparition of Mary to an indigenous peasant in Mexico City in the 16th century -- and how closely it ties the identity of the nation's Catholicism with Mary, who serves as a sort of "demi-goddess."
There are analogous Virgin Mary cults of devotion in other Latin American countries.
Lozano said Mexican Baptists and other Protestants, meanwhile, actively ignore Mary, to the extent of giving the biblical character short shrift.
"It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary," Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.
And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, "Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary."
In those countries, Lozano noted, "This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists."
Because Mary is so perfect in popular Catholic theology in Latin America -- perpetually a virgin, although a mother; blameless, even sinless -- Lozano said she becomes an impossible standard of womanhood. Nonetheless, many men look for this standard in the mother of their children.
On the other hand, Lozano noted, Mary's opposite -- the wanton harlot -- is what many men tend to look for in sex partners. Being forced to choose between the two stereotypes can be deadly for women.
"When these [images of Mary and her opposite] are misused, they become oppressive and a source of suffering for women," she said. "Neither one of these models is a good one for women, because they do not present women as complete human beings."
Lozano said that embracing the "life-giving" aspects of Marian veneration can be both healthy for all women and a bridge between Latin American Protestants and Catholics, she contended.
Lozano pointed to two passages dealing with Mary in the Christmas story as recorded in Luke's Gospel: The angel's announcement to Mary that she would bear Christ (Luke 1:26-38), and Mary's song of praise to God, often called the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).
Mary is not a passive presence in those stories, Lozano pointed out, but an active and willing participant in God's work who was "well aware of social injustices," she said.
"She is subject with a strong will and a social consciousness," Lozano noted.
Lozano delivered her remarks on the second day of the BWA's Annual Gathering in Ede, Netherlands. Hundreds of Baptists from around the world came to conduct BWA General Council business as well as observe the 400th anniversary of the Baptist movement, which began in the summer of 1609 in nearby Amsterdam.
Yes indeed! The Catholic Church is Christ's gift to us!
Come down into the river, you’ll enjoy it.
I'm not interested in your watery cult. I'll stay up here in the Church founded by Christ.
I’m IN the church founded by Christ, thank you. It’s called the Body of Christ, not the Cult of Mary.
Great! See you at Mass.
***I don’t care where it grew out of, or where you THINK it grew out of. He’s our Father and a Father wants a relationship with His children. What’s your problem that you don’t care about that? He loves you, Mark.***
One of the problems with the English language is that we miss out on some translated words. One is love. The Greeks have a whole bunch of different meanings depending on the situation.
In Jesus’ Two Commandments, He tells us to love God; and love our neighbour. Same English word. Far different meaning. The love of God is not the same as love of neighbour. We are to worship God; we are to embrace our neighbour. The notion of personal fellowship and relationship did not exist in early Christianity; it did not exist until relatively recently; it is not Scriptural and it is not Traditional.
Therefore it is a relatively recent notion of men. I had thought that you professed sola Scriptura. Can you justify this Scripturally?
I am making a point by responding to her in kind.
Scroll up in the thread to the point where she tells of her pastor bragging of missions to Ireland to bring the Good News to (read: to proselytize) Catholics.
The difference is simple: one is proselytization, the other is not.
You can easily find posts from her stating that some Catholics are not Christians at all.
I pray the Blessed Mother intercede on my behalf.
Amen.
The individual was wrong to say that.
The Catholic Church does not teach that.
“The notion of personal fellowship and relationship did not exist in early Christianity; it did not exist until relatively recently; it is not Scriptural and it is not Traditional.”
Tell the Apostle Paul.
“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...”
Jesus is your intercessor, 47. Only HE can answer your prayers. Love, M
Absolutely not.
***“The notion of personal fellowship and relationship did not exist in early Christianity; it did not exist until relatively recently; it is not Scriptural and it is not Traditional.”***
The verses you quote do not mean what you say they mean. The English is lacking.
***“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...”***
Let us go and find all those who are called sons of God.
Job 1:
6 Now on a certain day, when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them.
Sons of God here are angels.
Job 2:1 And it came to pass, when on a certain day the sons of God came, and stood before the Lord, and Satan came amongst them, and stood in his sight, 2 That the Lord said to Satan: Whence comest thou? And he answered, and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it.
More angels.
Psalm 88:7 For who in the clouds can be compared to the Lord: or who among the sons of God shall be like to God?
Just and pious men.
Deuteronomy 14:50: the nation of Israel.
All of the kings holding their rule from God in the OT were called sons of God. The OT Giants were called sons of God.
Does God have a personal fellowship and relationship with the Giants? The angels? Every single member of the House of Israel? C’mon, let’s do better than this.
Please tell me you are NOT claiming Romans 8 is referring to angels...
“9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1
“5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3
“4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.” - Galatians 4
” 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.” - Romans 8
“that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.” - 1 John 1
” 1See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” - 1 John 3
“In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will” - Ephesians 1
” 31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” - Romans 8
Are you seriously denying that we are called to be God’s children? Family?
Jesus Christ chose those whom the Father gave Him, and yes we do have an old sin nature still resident in us. By giving control of our decisions through faith in Christ, He is able to further sanctify us. That sanctifying work does not occur if we step out of fellowship or look towards anything other than Him.
Just as with Israel, we must return to Him for Him to return to us. Through faith in Christ, after we confess the sin to Him, after turning back towards Him, He is sure and just to forgive us those sins.
Just as when Christ washed the feat of His disciples, and one who insisted he not be washed, was corrected by Christ that if he did not allow Christ to wash us, we would have no part from Him. Then the disciple wanted not only his feet to be washed, but everything to be bathed. That disciple was corrected to note that after he had been bathed, when just a little bit of him need cleansing, after the little bit had been cleansed, he was fully cleansed before the Lord.
Just as a priest must provide the offering before entering the Tabernacle, and then cleanse himself by looking in the bronze laver and washing, we also must face God, consider ourselves before Him and be sure we have been washed by confession of sin to Him, through faith in Christ before we enter the Holy Place.
In the Holy Place, we may tabernacle with Him by the things He provides, the golden lampstand providing the Light unto our lives, the table of shewbread providing the bread of life, Bible doctrine from His Word, and then by the altar of incense, our Lord provides intercessory prayer to the Father for us.
Just as we are to pray without ceasing, we are never to fall out of fellowship with Him. If we do fall out of fellowship, by looking at anything but God, we miss the target, or in the Greek, we 'sin', just as an archer aiming his arrow would miss the target, the proper aim of our thinking and concentration.
When we sin, God the Holy Spirit is grieved, just as we might grieve when a loved one dies, we recognize that person might be in a better place, but we nonetheless grieve because by no fault of our own we no longer may have fellowship with that person until we also meet in heaven. The Holy Spirit is grieved when we sin, because no fault of His own, we have severed that fellowship with Him, until we return to Him, because of His immutable nature which is composed of Perfect Righteousness and Perfect Justice.
Since we have been purchased from the slave market of sin, redeemed by His blood, man is now reconciled back to God, again by that blood from the Cross, which propitiates His wrath from a wrong He never caused, but has now provided a solution, by which we may return into fellowship with Him, so He might further sanctify us, just as the Bride of the Messiah is fully sanctified and cleansed when wearing her Bridal gown. So too, will the Church be cleansed and sanctified at the wedding ceremony to the Son as His Bride just prior to the wedding feast in heaven and after He fetched the Bride at the Rapture, determined at a time by His Father.
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