Scholar says Baptists neglect lessons from Virgin Mary

ABP ^ | July 30, 2009 | Robert Marus

[NYer]

EDE, Netherlands (ABP) -- A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus.

Nora Lozano

Nora Lozano, associate professor of biblical and theological studies at Baptist University of the Americas, found potential liberation for women -- both Protestant and Catholic -- in Latin America and elsewhere by taking another look at the biblical story of Mary, Jesus' mother.

Lozano, a participant in theological conversations between the Baptist World Alliance and the Vatican, made the remarks in a presentation to the BWA Commission on Doctrine and Interchurch Cooperation at a meeting of global Baptists in the Netherlands.

She noted the Mexican story of the Virgin of Guadalupe -- a purported apparition of Mary to an indigenous peasant in Mexico City in the 16th century -- and how closely it ties the identity of the nation's Catholicism with Mary, who serves as a sort of "demi-goddess."

There are analogous Virgin Mary cults of devotion in other Latin American countries.

Lozano said Mexican Baptists and other Protestants, meanwhile, actively ignore Mary, to the extent of giving the biblical character short shrift.

"It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary," Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.

And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, "Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary."

In those countries, Lozano noted, "This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists."

Because Mary is so perfect in popular Catholic theology in Latin America -- perpetually a virgin, although a mother; blameless, even sinless -- Lozano said she becomes an impossible standard of womanhood. Nonetheless, many men look for this standard in the mother of their children.

On the other hand, Lozano noted, Mary's opposite -- the wanton harlot -- is what many men tend to look for in sex partners. Being forced to choose between the two stereotypes can be deadly for women.

"When these [images of Mary and her opposite] are misused, they become oppressive and a source of suffering for women," she said. "Neither one of these models is a good one for women, because they do not present women as complete human beings."

Lozano said that embracing the "life-giving" aspects of Marian veneration can be both healthy for all women and a bridge between Latin American Protestants and Catholics, she contended.

Lozano pointed to two passages dealing with Mary in the Christmas story as recorded in Luke's Gospel: The angel's announcement to Mary that she would bear Christ (Luke 1:26-38), and Mary's song of praise to God, often called the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).

Mary is not a passive presence in those stories, Lozano pointed out, but an active and willing participant in God's work who was "well aware of social injustices," she said.

"She is subject with a strong will and a social consciousness," Lozano noted.

Lozano delivered her remarks on the second day of the BWA's Annual Gathering in Ede, Netherlands. Hundreds of Baptists from around the world came to conduct BWA General Council business as well as observe the 400th anniversary of the Baptist movement, which began in the summer of 1609 in nearby Amsterdam.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I’ve come to believe that protestants fail to
give Mary the place of honor God did. I’ve come
to believe Roman Catholics exaggerate that same
place. I’ve come to believe the truth is closer
to the Roman position than the protestant one...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I’ve come to believe that protestants fail to
give Mary the place of honor God did. I’ve come
to believe Roman Catholics exaggerate that same
place. I’ve come to believe the truth is closer
to the Roman position than the protestant one...

[Mr Rogers]

No, I did not ignore it. I do deny that Jesus meant to be taken literally.

[SkyDancer]

How can you determine it’s false when the hits I got all said the same thing - I went to the Catholic sites but course they denied it - so it begs the question then: Who do you believe? Them or the RCC?? And no, contrary to what you think or believe, I’ve not been playing ....but it’s understandable why you see it that way .... if something is presented and rather than in a compassionate way to answer it I got “you HAVE been playing ... and noxious at that ....” plus other things .... take care ... seems compassion is one thing missing around here... maybe get a new dogma about it...

[AnAmericanMother]

It's not reasonable to base your assessment of a religion on what one priest told you in response to a provocative albeit joking remark (and you know it was provocative because you qualified it by saying "just joking"). I know plenty of priests who would rise to that bait and give you exactly what you were looking for, with a perfectly straight face -- my husband used to do that to Yankees and he could really get them going. As for somebody giving you a hard time for a smart remark at age 8, well, again, you got about what you should expect.

I would suggest that checking the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is full of Scriptural references and lots of useful information, as well as an authoritative book of apologetics, would be more to the point. Not to mention I was not joking with the information I gave you. There was no council in Valencia in 1229 and there could not have been such a council. That's information that's quite useful, because it debunks whatever source you got the slander from.

And when you started asking questions back at the beginning of this thread, I responded with polite, accurate, and pertinent answers to your questions. When you made a statement that was patently false (not a question), I corrected your error. What exactly is the problem?

[Mr Rogers]

“”Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Salvation is used several ways in the Bible. It can refer to justification, sanctification, or both.

But Jesus promised to bring us through to the end. We shouldn’t ignore our role, but neither should we deny His.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, to answer your question, the way you could tell the statement was false was that well-known history renders it completely impossible. A review of a neutral site - almost any history site - listing all the councils of the Church would show that a "Council of Valencia" never occurred. And a review of any history of Valencia would give you a time line which would show that the Moors were in possession in that year.

It's just basic historical research. It's not rocket science.

You can't throw out easily disprovable slander like that and expect people not to conclude that you're being either lazy or deliberately provocative. Given your rude remark to the priest in RCIA, I imagine that you are being provocative, perhaps without realizing it.

[Petronski]

How can you determine it’s false...

Oh no no no. How can you determine it is true?

...when the hits I got all said the same thing...

I do not believe an honest research would fail to turn up this old-school fraud/smear.

[Petronski]

I have my own dogma about those who claim to be innocently posting patently-absurd slurs against the Catholic Church: their behavior is malicious.

Generally speaking, of course.

[SkyDancer]

But this is ok? "Scholar says Baptists neglect lessons from Virgin Mary"

Who's lessons? Disparaging another denomination because they don't believe what you believe? Wouldn't that be a slur against the Baptists?

[x_plus_one]

Dec. 8th is the yearly anniversary of the immaculate conception of mary...not Jesus....

[Petronski]

A polite suggestion is not a slur.

A false accusation repeated though demonstrably false is a slur.

[SkyDancer]

Just posted what I found, you considered it a slur not something inaccurate. If inaccurate you state your reasons as to why. I’ve found that when things don’t go the way someone in a debate wants, they attack the person rather than point out where they are wrong. Thanks for proving that right.

[Petronski]

If inaccurate you state your reasons as to why.

Again, no.

It's your claim, you state your reasons why it's true.

You posit something, you prove it.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

Dec. 8th is the yearly anniversary of the immaculate conception of mary...not Jesus.... Huh?

[AnAmericanMother]

Notice you're not responding to my point that not only is the slander you posted easily disprovable, it can't be true.

And I gave you the reasons why. And I have not attacked you, although I have pointed out that your modus operandi will cause some to view you with suspicion.

[AnAmericanMother]

But this is ok? "Scholar says Baptists neglect lessons from Virgin Mary"

Who's lessons? Disparaging another denomination because they don't believe what you believe? Wouldn't that be a slur against the Baptists?

The person making that statement is a professor at a Baptist school. She's not disparaging another denomination -- she's pointing out a problem with her own church. Did you read the article?

[SkyDancer]

Wasn’t my intent but it was taken that way - the only thing I wanted was answers ... I go to several websites that all basically said the same thing (Council of Trent 1229) then I go to the Catholic website (www.catholic.net) and read something different. Ok, well you came up with why it was false. I find out that under the Moors in Spain, Christian, Jew and Muslims all lived together just fine and could practice their faiths.
I didn’t say you attacked me, it was “Petronski” who said I made slurs against the Church. I have no motive. But then who’s to believe ....

[Petronski]

Disparaging another denomination...

Good catch!

I missed that part.

[SkyDancer]

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