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To: bdeaner
If any one expects to find in this period [100-325], or in any of the church fathers, Augustin himself not excepted, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone, . . . he will be greatly disappointed

Now there's an interesting statement...It's interesting because it's not true...

First off, most of 'your' early church fathers quoted far more often the texts that were compiled to become the Majority Texts than they quoted your LXX texts...

Plus, a number of your early church fathers made the claim that if you can't find it in the scripture, stay away from it...

The scriptures are full of statements about justification without works...

If you can come up with 'church' fathers that deny this, it only proves what Paul said about people in his midst who are already corrupting the word of God...

And what's even funnier is, you guys claim your religion wrote the very scripture that condemns such beliefs...

10 posted on 07/29/2009 6:09:44 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
And what's even funnier is, you guys claim your religion wrote the very scripture that condemns such beliefs...

Iscool, this is a major over-simplication of the issues of concern regarding justification in the Council of Trent. Protestants have a tendency to make straw man arguments that attack the Church's soteriology, because they do not understand that Catholics do not reject Paul's teaching on works, but rather understand it differently than Protestants do. Paul's letters are without error, but according to us, you guys get it wrong.

Nevertheless, we are in a period of time in which the Church is conciliatory toward Protestants on the issue of justification and striving for an emphasis on common ground, for the sake of the unity of the Church, which Christ desired. When the common ground is identified, the issues of concern are not faith vs works, because in Paul "works" refers to Judaic Law, not baptism or the Eucharist, etc. Whereas in James, faith is dead without "works" -- that is, without putting into action faith, hope and charity, which are in fact the virtues Paul consistently endorsed -- the greatest of these being charity (1 Cor. 13:13). Faith without hope and charity is dead. The implication is that just saying one is 'saved' is not enough -- with the help of the grace of the Lord (because the following is impossible without His grace), we are also asked to become part of the Body of Christ, making Him incarnate in our actions in the world, bringing faith and hope and charity to the world.

Recommended Reading: Setting the Record Straight
11 posted on 07/29/2009 7:44:46 AM PDT by bdeaner
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To: Iscool

Er, where did your “religion” get its scriptures?

Aside from that, the problem with Protestantism in general is that it picks and chooses, and different Protestant sects will obsess on one or another part that has been picked out and build their whole new “religion” on that particular part or emphasis. So this means that while they may have obsessed on something that is true in itself, they make it the only truth and ignore all of the other aspects that they are afraid may conflict with this fragment that they have enshrined in their minds as the only truth.

The only place where you get the whole thing is in the Catholic Church.


20 posted on 08/30/2009 3:50:35 PM PDT by livius
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