Posted on 07/22/2009 10:39:38 PM PDT by bdeaner
Aha, thank you.
And this is our sticking point. What makes you think that only the first instant of Creation was outside the laws of nature? Why do you assume the laws of nature, from the very first instant, were uniform and unalterable? Because you want to? Because it's what you're used to? Because that's what your more comfortable with? Because the idea that not everything comes within the purview of science hurts your feelings?
You are going to dismiss what I say, so I wonder why I take the time to say this (maybe for the benefit of other reders): the universe as it was originally created was different from the one known to science. There were three occasions when the universe and its laws "decayed" (for want of a better term): the Sin in the Garden, the Flood, and the Dispersal at Babel. I know, you regard these as fairy tales. But they are no more incredible than your chr*stian miracles.
Furthermore when Adam and Eve were created the human gestation period was very brief. The day they were created Adam and Eve had sexual intercourse twice producing Cain and a half sister (from the first act) and Abel and two sisters (from the second). The gestation period in both cases was a matter of moments. The nine month gestation period was a punishment for the sin: "I will lengthen your conception."
Now, you dismiss all of this out of hand because it isn't "fair" for G-d to operate in this way so that every second since the "big bang" is accessible to empirical science . . . right?
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To be honest, on reading this last post of yours, all I can see is that you have no excuse for your uniformitarianism since you agree with me that creation occurred outside the laws of nature. You apparently accept the first eleven chapters of Genesis are “theological” rather than historical for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than that you choose to do so.
If I told you that G-d wrote the Torah and dictated it to Moses letter-for-letter you would only smile . . . correct?
Again, if you reject uniformitarianism then you have no logical grounds whatsoever to reject the literal/historical interpretation of Genesis 1-11. It can only be blindness or stubbornness.
But you just said science can't critique the Creation! And now you're scientifically critiquing it!
The first human beings appeared on the earth around 250,000 years ago. In contrast, the physical universe began about 15 billion years ago.
And how do you know this? Because it "looks that old?" Adam looked liked he was about twenty when he was created! FCOL man, you're not making any sense at all! I have explained to you over and over that the universe was created in a completed state and then began to function! The vegetation created on Day Three sprang forth on Day Six after the rain fell that Adam had prayed for, and they looked "old!" Adam and Eve's first five children "looked like" they had developed for nine months in Eve's womb even though their gestation was only the matter of a few moments!
May I ask you what you think the universe would "look like" if it had been created complete and fully functional 5769 years ago?
It didn't happen in seven literal days. Why would God give us evidence, and dispose us to discover evidence, that was completely contrary to the truth of a literal interpretation of Genesis if we were supposed to read Genesis literally?
So you're saying that G-d could not have created the Grand Canyon in situ instead of allowing it to form naturally over millions of years because this would be "deception" on His part? May I point out that it is only "deception" if one insists on retrojecting today's natural laws and processes into the Creation itself and that in this case it is you who are creating a "straw man?" I suppose you don't see that there is a similar problem with interpreting Genesis "non-literally" (ie, making G-d a "deceiver," chas veshalom!)? No, you prefer science so G-d's non-literal truths are all confined to the Bible for you.
Doesn't make sense, and especially seems silly to make that choice when serious regard for scientific evidence actually supports the existence of a Creator.
I'm not interested in your theoretical abstract "creator." I'm interested in HaShem, the Biblical G-d.
Do you think God is playing tricks on all of contemporary natural and social science? I don't.
So? You think G-d "played tricks" on mankind for three thousand years, from the time the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai, until the nineteenth century--you even think your church fathers didn't know what they were talking about! So how is this any nobler than "playing tricks on natural scientists?" And again, on what grounds do "natural and social(???) scientists" have to reject the idea that a fully formed universe was created in the beginning that only then began to function "normally" (and that there were changes in "natual law" even after this)?
It strikes me that you believe what you do simply because you want to. You're a scientist and for the glory of your profession you turn the Bible into mythology and reject all traditional commentaries as pre-modern ignorance. And perhaps also you have an aversion to that culture that interprets the Bible literally ("those awful people").
Empiricism and "reason" give only an indirect knowledge of G-d. The Holy Torah gives direct knowledge of G-d. After all, every human being's name and all that happens to him is encoded in the text. You think the "documentary hypothesis" could produce that?
Please just answer one question. Could or could not G-d have created a fully formed, fully functional universe when only then began to operate along the lines of the "natural law" you believe in? Could or could not the laws of nature as they existed prior to the sin, the flood, and the dispersion have been very, very different from the natural laws we know today? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Are you saying that if G-d had created a fully grown man, or a fully grown tree, or the Grand Canyon by fiat rather than by allowing them all to develop "naturally" that He would then be a deceiver because such is "unfair to scientists?" Is this why you adamantly reject the idea of a completed universe created swiftly a relatively short time ago? Why should G-d be any more fair to scientists than He has been to theologians for the past three thousand plus years?
Could G-d have created the Grand Canyon? Answer yes or no. Why are you so certain that after an initial instant of creation everything began to function naturally? Can you answer me at all?
Humans did not appear on the scene until very recently, within the relative age of the cosmos. Billions of years passed from the moment of time at the beginning of the universe until the first Homo sapiens walked the earth, around 250,000 years ago. To speak of these timelines as occurring within a literal seven days is ludicrous from my perspective. In fact, the concept of a day, as in 24 hours, is based upon the revolution of the earth on its axis in relation to the sun, and has no meaning outside of that context, and so obviously doesn't pertain to God, who is not bound by time as we know it in these terms.
First of all, a Vatican scientist some time ago wouldn't even state with certitude that the earth rotates (and I'm not talking about four hundred years ago, either). Second of all, a night consists of twelve hours and a day consists of twelve hours. These hours are relative, meaning merely 1/12 of the night or day. Right now daytime hours are longer than nighttime hours. The situation will be reversed in the winter.
You know, the fact that you and I continue to talk past each other simply illustrates that our two sides will never understand one another. You speak of "straw men," yet what you fail to realize is that I also agree that there are parts of the Bible that are not to be taken literally--however--these parts are determined not by "modern scholarship" but by ancient tradition.
Similarly, you are focused so narrowly on creation in "six 23 hour days" (which of course they were) but you are missing the point, which is not that those 24 hours were the same as our 24 hours (indeed, they may have been even shorter!) but that the universe, the earth, and life did not develop naturally. You want G-d to start the whole ball rolling (like an eighteenth century deist) and then let "natural law" do its work. And that's the problem! There was no natural law!!! And when there was it wasn't at all like ours (I keep mentioning the short gestation period, and you keep ignoring me).
I give up. The Catholic "gxd" is indeed the "gxd" of the philosophers and intellectuals and not at all the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (who according to you probably didn't exist, unless you want to engage in more hypocrisy and inconsistency).
Could or could not G-d have created a fully formed, fully functional universe when only then began to operate along the lines of the "natural law" you believe in?
He could have. But He didn't.
And you know this how? Because you choose to believe it?
Could or could not the laws of nature as they existed prior to the sin, the flood, and the dispersion have been very, very different from the natural laws we know today?
I have no reason to believe so.
So you utterly reject all ancient tradition that conflicts with "modern science?"
I said I do not believe God would create human beings and give them a position in the universe perfectly situated as to discover the universal laws of physics, just to play games with them, when in fact He had actually created a universe that operates under completely separate principles.
So that's why you believe the "laws of nature" have been exactly as they are now from the very first fiat lux. It would be "unfair" for you scientists if they had ever been different at any time. So I guess this means you reject the idea that Adam and Eve were originally immortal as well. Why you think G-d should have greater respect for uniformitarian physical scientists than theologians is something you have chosen not to share.
That's not the God I know intimately through prayer and study of the sacred scripture and tradition.
What "tradition?" The perennial Tradition we have had since the days of Adam (for your sake I'll say Moses), or the measly "tradition" of Charles Darwin and Julius Wellhausen? Which of your church fathers taught "higher criticism?" St. Jerome, perhaps?
He did create it [the Grand Canyon]. He just decided to do so in a way that can be measured in terms of billions of revolutions of the earth around the sun. We call these "years."
And again, you know this how, since whether it was created in situ or as you describe it would look exactly the same? Are you saying it all comes down to personal preference as to what one chooses to believe?
Why are you so certain that after an initial instant of creation everything began to function naturally?
Mountains of empirical evidence in physics.
What "mountains of evidence?" As I said, whether the universe was created the way you or I believe it would still look and function exactly as it does. One way the laws of physics as we know them go all the back to fiat lux, the other they go all the way back to a time when they were changed from a previous state, and before that to a time when they began to function on a fully-assembled universe. You are basically admitting that you believe what you do merely because that is what you prefer to believe--again, because "G-d wouldn't lie to scientists" even though you believe he "lied" to theologians and scholars for three thousand years!
What makes you so certain it didn't?
I don't suppose your mind is the slightest bit open to the direct Divine authorship of the Torah, as in "written by G-d Himself and then dictated to Moses letter-for-letter at Mt. Sinai?" Do you have any grounds for your fanatical embrace of the "documentary hypothesis" other than that is what you enjoy believing?
So you utterly reject all ancient tradition that conflicts with "modern science?"
No, I don't. Scientific reasoning is only one kind of reasoning, and it has its limits.
You reject the following traditions: when first created Adam had the body of what we would call a twenty year old man; the human gestation period was very brief until the first sin; G-d wrote the Torah and dictated it to Moses. How can science critique any of this? How would the world be different if the first man had been created 5769 years ago with the body of an adult? Really, how would things be any different at all?
By the examination of the evidence through faith and through reason. I am aware of no valid reason to believe the grand canyon just appeared a few thousand years ago.
In what way is the uniformitarian assumption scientific or even "reasonable?"
I think God has more respect for genuinely objective scientists than a lot of theologians. Good science requires genuine humility, a quality typically lacking in many theologians
LOL! Good one!
Oh wait . . . you were serious, weren't you?
Church tradition. The teachings of the Magisterium.
Then why do you reject the idea that Adam and Eve were created immortal? Isn't that part of your "church tradition," or was that just more "prideful theologians" shooting off their bazoos before the "humble scientists" proved what jackasses they were?
It seems that's about all you have to go on. But in my case, no. On the contrary, it is about putting aside personal preferences and examining the facts that God allowed us to discover and the faculty of reason he blessed us with, to arrive at the truth.
How can the fact that all humans today begin life as zygotes tell us anything about how the first man who ever existed came into being? How can the fact that the human gestation period is now some nine months tell us anything about the original gestation period? How can the fact that all plant life needs sunlight tell us anything about the period before this law kicked in, when all things (including this law) were still in the process of being created?
As I said, whether the universe was created the way you or I believe it would still look and function exactly as it does.
No, I reject that premise.
Why? As I asked before, how does watching the operation of the universe now tell us the first thing about its creation? So far all I'm hearing is "G-d wouldn't do that to us." And you still refuse to address the fact that turning the Torah into didactic mythology raises the same problem.
Please forgive me for revisiting this issue, but if you reject your church's tradition about Adam and Eve being originally immortal then on what grounds do you justify arbitrarily accepting your church's tradition with regard to the virgin birth? What's the difference? How is the scientific worldview threatened by an immortal Adam created with a "20 year old" body (because "things like that just don't happen") but not by a human being born without a father? Or what's the difference between insisting that the human gestation period has always been nine months and insisting that a human birth always requires a human father? If you're going to defer to tradition with regard to the latter, on what grounds do you critique tradition with regard to the former?
Do you care to explain this?
I don’t reject my Church’s tradition about Adam and Eve being originally immortal. I never said I did. Their souls were immortal, as are those who are justified and sanctified in Christ.
You have not yet explained how the world would look for function differently if the universe had been created fully formed 5769 years ago. All I get is that you subject the formation of the universe to the physical laws that exist today because you wish to do so.
I see no reason, based on Scripture alone, to conclude he somehow must have been 20-years-old at the time of his creation by God.
First, I didn't say Adam was created twenty years old, which is an absurdity. I said he was created with the body of what we today would consider an adult of approximately twenty years old. Are you perhaps incapable of seeing the difference? Next thing you know you'll be invoking the "false memories" fairy tale.
Second, I said absolutely nothing about "scripture alone." You evidently have not been reading my posts. I have said from the beginning that it is immemorial tradition that Adam was created with the body of what we would call an adult of about twenty years age. The text says no such thing. Looks like you're the "protestant" here.
the human gestation period was very brief until the first sin;
Huh? Please elaborate.
I have elaborated on this time and time again, evidently to be conveniently ignored by you because it goes against your prejudices. According to the Talmud Adam and Eve on the day they were created "went down as two and rose as seven." They had two acts of sexual intercourse, the first of which produced Cain and a twin sister and the second of which produced Abel and two "triplet" sisters. G-d told Eve "Harbah 'arbeh `itztzevonekh veheronekh" ("I will multiply your pain and your conception"), meaning that the gestation period was increased to nine months. How many times do I have to explain this to you?
Moses wrote it; the Lord inspired it, and protected it from error.
Don't you mean J, E, P, and D wrote it and that it was later "attributed" to Moses?
My point is not that science is a critique of Genesis; but that Genesis is not a science book. It teaches spiritual truth, not lessons in physics, geology, comparative biology, anthropology, etc.
The creation of the universe and its formation prior to when the laws of nature began to function is not a legitimate field of scientific endeavor. It is altogether outside the purview of science. Cosmogony is theology. Science has nothing to say about it.
How would the world be different if the first man had been created 5769 years ago with the body of an adult? Really, how would things be any different at all?
The question is moot, because the universe simply was not created a mere 5769 years ago.
Wow. What circular reasoning. The universe couldn't have been created fully formed 5769 years ago because of the evidence of the physical sciences. I ask you how that evidence would be the slightest bit different, and you say the point is moot because the universe wasn't created fully formed 5769 years ago because of the evidence of the physicl sciences. You're gonna win a Nobel Prize before it's over.
Ever heard of carbon dating?
Yes I have. I've also heard how unreliable it can be.
I dont reject my Churchs tradition about Adam and Eve being originally immortal. I never said I did. Their souls were immortal, as are those who are justified and sanctified in Christ.
Ah, so they weren't created physically immortal at all and the Council of Trent were a bunch of yahoos who didn't know what they were talking about. Thank you for clearing that up. (Actually, from my perspective, Adam and Eve may have been created mortal. But then, I don't have to ignore the Council of Trent to believe that.)
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