The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Purify and punish are not identical. We seek purification. We do not seek punishment.

I still owe bdeaner a response to post 30, and hopefully I’ll be healthy enough to work on it today. In the meantime, I think this long quote helps deal with the core issues...

“...You must not understand the word law here in human fashion, i.e., a regulation about what sort of works must be done or must not be done. That’s the way it is with human laws: you satisfy the demands of the law with works, whether your heart is in it or not. God judges what is in the depths of the heart. Therefore his law also makes demands on the depths of the heart and doesn’t let the heart rest content in works; rather it punishes as hypocrisy and lies all works done apart from the depths of the heart. All human beings are called liars (Psalm 116), since none of them keeps or can keep God’s law from the depths of the heart. Everyone finds inside himself an aversion to good and a craving for evil. Where there is no free desire for good, there the heart has not set itself on God’s law. There also sin is surely to be found and the deserved wrath of God, whether a lot of good works and an honorable life appear outwardly or not.

Therefore in chapter 2, St. Paul adds that the Jews are all sinners and says that only the doers of the law are justified in the sight of God. What he is saying is that no one is a doer of the law by works. On the contrary, he says to them, “You teach that one should not commit adultery, and you commit adultery. You judge another in a certain matter and condemn yourselves in that same matter, because you do the very same thing that you judged in another.” It is as if he were saying, “Outwardly you live quite properly in the works of the law and judge those who do not live the same way; you know how to teach everybody. You see the speck in another’s eye but do not notice the beam in your own.”

Outwardly you keep the law with works out of fear of punishment or love of gain. Likewise you do everything without free desire and love of the law; you act out of aversion and force. You’d rather act otherwise if the law didn’t exist. It follows, then, that you, in the depths of your heart, are an enemy of the law. What do you mean, therefore, by teaching another not to steal, when you, in the depths of your heart, are a thief and would be one outwardly too, if you dared. (Of course, outward work doesn’t last long with such hypocrites.) So then, you teach others but not yourself; you don’t even know what you are teaching. You’ve never understood the law rightly. Furthermore, the law increases sin, as St. Paul says in chapter 5. That is because a person becomes more and more an enemy of the law the more it demands of him what he can’t possibly do.

In chapter 7, St. Paul says, “The law is spiritual.” What does that mean? If the law were physical, then it could be satisfied by works, but since it is spiritual, no one can satisfy it unless everything he does springs from the depths of the heart. But no one can give such a heart except the Spirit of God, who makes the person be like the law, so that he actually conceives a heartfelt longing for the law and henceforward does everything, not through fear or coercion, but from a free heart. Such a law is spiritual since it can only be loved and fulfilled by such a heart and such a spirit. If the Spirit is not in the heart, then there remain sin, aversion and enmity against the law, which in itself is good, just and holy.

You must get used to the idea that it is one thing to do the works of the law and quite another to fulfill it. The works of the law are every thing that a person does or can do of his own free will and by his own powers to obey the law. But because in doing such works the heart abhors the law and yet is forced to obey it, the works are a total loss and are completely useless. That is what St. Paul means in chapter 3 when he says, “No human being is justified before God through the works of the law.” From this you can see that the schoolmasters [i.e., the scholastic theologians] and sophists are seducers when they teach that you can prepare yourself for grace by means of works. How can anybody prepare himself for good by means of works if he does no good work except with aversion and constraint in his heart? How can such a work please God, if it proceeds from an averse and unwilling heart?

But to fulfill the law means to do its work eagerly, lovingly and freely, without the constraint of the law; it means to live well and in a manner pleasing to God, as though there were no law or punishment. It is the Holy Spirit, however, who puts such eagerness of unconstrained love into the heart, as Paul says in chapter 5. But the Spirit is given only in, with, and through faith in Jesus Christ, as Paul says in his introduction. So, too, faith comes only through the word of God, the Gospel, that preaches Christ: how he is both Son of God and man, how he died and rose for our sake. Paul says all this in chapters 3, 4 and 10.

That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law; faith it is that brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ. The Spirit, in turn, renders the heart glad and free, as the law demands. Then good works proceed from faith itself. That is what Paul means in chapter 3 when, after he has thrown out the works of the law, he sounds as though the wants to abolish the law by faith. No, he says, we uphold the law through faith, i.e. we fulfill it through faith....

...That is why only unbelief is called sin by Christ, as he says in John, chapter 16, “The Spirit will punish the world because of sin, because it does not believe in me.” Furthermore, before good or bad works happen, which are the good or bad fruits of the heart, there has to be present in the heart either faith or unbelief, the root, sap and chief power of all sin. That is why, in the Scriptures, unbelief is called the head of the serpent and of the ancient dragon which the offspring of the woman, i.e. Christ, must crush, as was promised to Adam (cf. Genesis 3). Grace and gift differ in that grace actually denotes God’s kindness or favor which he has toward us and by which he is disposed to pour Christ and the Spirit with his gifts into us, as becomes clear from chapter 5, where Paul says, “Grace and gift are in Christ, etc.” The gifts and the Spirit increase daily in us, yet they are not complete, since evil desires and sins remain in us which war against the Spirit, as Paul says in chapter 7, and in Galations, chapter 5. And Genesis, chapter 3, proclaims the enmity between the offspring of the woman and that of the serpent. But grace does do this much: that we are accounted completely just before God. God’s grace is not divided into bits and pieces, as are the gifts, but grace takes us up completely into God’s favor for the sake of Christ, our intercessor and mediator, so that the gifts may begin their work in us.

In this way, then, you should understand chapter 7, where St. Paul portrays himself as still a sinner, while in chapter 8 he says that, because of the incomplete gifts and because of the Spirit, there is nothing damnable in those who are in Christ. Because our flesh has not been killed, we are still sinners, but because we believe in Christ and have the beginnings of the Spirit, God so shows us his favor and mercy, that he neither notices nor judges such sins. Rather he deals with us according to our belief in Christ until sin is killed.

Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, “Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven.” The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, “I believe.” This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.

Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn’t ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn’t do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn’t know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God’s grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God’s grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgments about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate.

Now justice is just such a faith. It is called God’s justice or that justice which is valid in God’s sight, because it is God who gives it and reckons it as justice for the sake of Christ our Mediator. It influences a person to give to everyone what he owes him. Through faith a person becomes sinless and eager for God’s commands. Thus he gives God the honor due him and pays him what he owes him. He serves people willingly with the means available to him. In this way he pays everyone his due. Neither nature nor free will nor our own powers can bring about such a justice, for even as no one can give himself faith, so too he cannot remove unbelief. How can he then take away even the smallest sin? Therefore everything which takes place outside faith or in unbelief is lie, hypocrisy and sin (Romans 14), no matter how smoothly it may seem to go.

You must not understand flesh here as denoting only unchastity or spirit as denoting only the inner heart. Here St. Paul calls flesh (as does Christ in John 3) everything born of flesh, i.e. the whole human being with body and soul, reason and senses, since everything in him tends toward the flesh...

On the other hand, you should know enough to call that person “spiritual” who is occupied with the most outward of works as was Christ, when he washed the feet of the disciples, and Peter, when he steered his boat and fished. So then, a person is “flesh” who, inwardly and outwardly, lives only to do those things which are of use to the flesh and to temporal existence. A person is “spirit” who, inwardly and outwardly, lives only to do those things which are of use to the spirit and to the life to come.

Unless you understand these words in this way, you will never understand either this letter of St. Paul or any book of the Scriptures. Be on guard, therefore against any teacher who uses these words differently, no matter who he be, whether Jerome, Augustine, Ambrose, Origen or anyone else as great as or greater than they...

...In chapter 2, St. Paul extends his rebuke to those who appear outwardly pious or who sin secretly. Such were the Jews, and such are all hypocrites still, who live virtuous lives but without eagerness and love; in their heart they are enemies of God’s law and like to judge other people. That’s the way with hypocrites: they think that they are pure but are actually full of greed, hate, pride and all sorts of filth (cf. Matthew 23). These are they who despise God’s goodness and, by their hardness of heart, heap wrath upon themselves. Thus Paul explains the law rightly when he lets no one remain without sin but proclaims the wrath of God to all who want to live virtuously by nature or by free will. He makes them out to be no better than public sinners; he says they are hard of heart and unrepentant.

In chapter 3, Paul lumps both secret and public sinners together: the one, he says, is like the other; all are sinners in the sight of God. Besides, the Jews had God’s word, even though many did not believe in it. But still God’s truth and faith in him are not thereby rendered useless. St. Paul introduces, as an aside, the saying from Psalm 51, that God remains true to his words. Then he returns to his topic and proves from Scripture that they are all sinners and that no one becomes just through the works of the law but that God gave the law only so that sin might be perceived.

Next St. Paul teaches the right way to be virtuous and to be saved; he says that they are all sinners, unable to glory in God. They must, however, be justified through faith in Christ...

...St. Paul verifies his teaching on faith in chapter 3 with a powerful example from Scripture. He calls as witness David, who says in Psalm 32 that a person becomes just without works but doesn’t remain without works once he has become just...St. Paul adds that the law brings about more wrath than grace, because no one obeys it with love and eagerness. More disgrace than grace come from the works of the law. Therefore faith alone can obtain the grace promised to Abraham. Examples like these are written for our sake, that we also should have faith.

In chapter 5, St. Paul comes to the fruits and works of faith, namely: joy, peace, love for God and for all people; in addition: assurance, steadfastness, confidence, courage, and hope in sorrow and suffering. All of these follow where faith is genuine, because of the overflowing good will that God has shown in Christ: he had him die for us before we could ask him for it, yes, even while we were still his enemies. Thus we have established that faith, without any good works, makes just. It does not follow from that, however, that we should not do good works; rather it means that morally upright works do not remain lacking. About such works the “works-holy” people know nothing; they invent for themselves their own works in which are neither peace nor joy nor assurance nor love nor hope nor steadfastness nor any kind of genuine Christian works or faith....

...In chapter 6, St. Paul takes up the special work of faith, the struggle which the spirit wages against the flesh to kill off those sins and desires that remain after a person has been made just. He teaches us that faith doesn’t so free us from sin that we can be idle, lazy and self-assured, as though there were no more sin in us. Sin is there, but, because of faith that struggles against it, God does not reckon sin as deserving damnation. Therefore we have in our own selves a lifetime of work cut out for us; we have to tame our body, kill its lusts, force its members to obey the spirit and not the lusts...

The entire piece doesn’t take long to read, and is well worth the effort. For Purgatory is a symptom. The disease is a failure, by the Catholic hierarchy - for many Catholics are true Christians - to understand what sin is, what faith is, and how God saves us. It is a failure to understand the new birth. Born again isn’t a red-neck phrase. It is a key to understanding how God saves us.

Once you understand that, Purgatory becomes a repulsive, demented insult to Jesus Christ.

For any interested, the entire piece, “Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans” by Martin Luther can be found free & online here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/luther/romans/files/romans.html

Antagonism is not allowed on Religion Forum threads labeled “ecumenical.”

The Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory makes God out to be an extortionist who delights in extorting money out of grieving friends and relatives of those supposedly in purgatory to the aggrandizement of the "church".

Upon the death of a loved one the priest and church say to the living relative or friend: "Your loved one is suffering in purgatory, you want your loved one to get out of purgatory don't you? Then you must give, give, give and pay, pay, pay for masses, prayers, indulgences, etc... in order to appease God and help them get out." How much is enough to get them out? No one ever knows and no one can ever be sure their loved one is out of purgatory because the money must continue flowing into the coffers of the church.

What a terrible system of fear and terror, fear for the souls of their dead and terror of death for themselves. I know, because this is what I personally experienced but God, in His mercy delivered me from all of this on the basis of the free gift of grace through faith in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Was that corrective directed at me? I ask because I did not post the message that was deleted. I haven’t posted anything this morning thus far. ???

My thoughts remain. You are inferring and putting things into the texts that are NOT there. In other words you are ‘forcing’ a prophecy.

Purify and punish are not identical. We seek purification. We do not seek punishment.

Punishment doesn't occur in that post anywhere.

Please note Post #1. This is an ecumenical thread, and I have requested a spirit of generosity in the style of communication. By that, I mean maintaining a steadfast commitment to the Truth, but at the same time working to understand what your interlocutor really means before attempting to undermine them. Let's try to avoid straw man arguments, 'gotcha games', fallacious styles of reasoning, and try to start with a common ground and carefully, warmly, and gently, with charity, identify differences in doctrine, comparing and contrasting perspectives.

"Be kind and tender to one another. Forgive each other, just as God forgave you because of what Christ has done" (Ephesians 4:32). It is then that we are more able to "speak the truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15). G

God bless.

"The actual doctrine does not place Purgatory in the physical realm. It is also not to be equated with punishment."

Catholic doctrine

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Temporal punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

By Catholic doctrine Purgatory is punishment for those "not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions". So according to Catholic doctrine God doesn't "forgive and forget" like He instructs His children: (Mat 18:21-22, "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, ‘I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven’."), and the rich lord didn't really forgive all the debt in (verse 32 "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me".)

The statements in scripture about Jesus being the satisfaction for sin is only partially true, (1Cr 15:3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"), (Hbr 1:3, "Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;") since man must pay the penalty for his sin.

According to that doctrine, when one confesses his sin God doesn't really forgive and cleanse as He promised (1Jo 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”) until He has exacted punishment that is undetermined until after one dies, and the Psalmist has it all wrong when he says (Psa 103:10-12, "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.") since God does reward us according to our sins by the undetermined punishment in Purgatory.

Seems the author is painting with a broad brush.

Therefore in chapter 2, St. Paul adds that the Jews are all sinners and says that only the doers of the law are justified in the sight of God. What he is saying is that no one is a doer of the law by works. On the contrary, he says to them, “You teach that one should not commit adultery, and you commit adultery. You judge another in a certain matter and condemn yourselves in that same matter, because you do the very same thing that you judged in another.”

Not everyone was an adulterer.

You must get used to the idea that it is one thing to do the works of the law and quite another to fulfill it. The works of the law are every thing that a person does or can do of his own free will and by his own powers to obey the law. But because in doing such works the heart abhors the law and yet is forced to obey it, the works are a total loss and are completely useless. That is what St. Paul means in chapter 3 when he says, “No human being is justified before God through the works of the law.” From this you can see that the schoolmasters [i.e., the scholastic theologians] and sophists are seducers when they teach that you can prepare yourself for grace by means of works. How can anybody prepare himself for good by means of works if he does no good work except with aversion and constraint in his heart? How can such a work please God, if it proceeds from an averse and unwilling heart?

Here the author pretends to KNOW what is in the hearts of others and suggests that people couldn't possibly desire with a willing heart to keep the law or do alms. James tells us otherwise.

Acts 21
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Maybe Paul hates the Law and it seeps into his writings?

Recall that there were two tablets brought down from Sinai. The First Tablet of the Law/ceremonial or as mentioned in Revelation the first works, contained the commandments and obligations given to man concerning maintaining his relationship with God. In other words these commandments were "vertical"; between man and God. These commandments in the First Tablet of the Law dealt with man's relationship with God and when obeyed guaranteed man's continued acceptance with God. These Laws, or should I say "categories" of Laws were manifestations of man's Covenant stipulations with God whereby if observed "kept" man in good relationship with God within his respective Covenant. The Second Tablet of the Law/moral/civil or as mentioned in Revelation, the second works, contained the commandments and obligations given to man concerning man's relationship with man.

Revelation 2:19
I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself." The "Two Tablets of the Law" as given in Dueteronomy and Leviticus.

Deuteronomy 6
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Acts 10:2 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people (Second Tablet of the Law), and prayed to God alway (First Tablet of the Law) (KJV)

Cornelius, not a Jew mind you, and not a convert to Judaism, keeping the Laws of God written on his heart which just happens to be parallel to the Laws of Moses.

Another interesting tidbit about Cornelius.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The interesting point here, is that in Acts 2:38, it is implied that one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost after baptism.

However, in Acts 10 the Holy Ghost fell upon the Gentiles prior to any baptism.

Acts 10
34   Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35   But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
48   And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Obviously, baptism isn't required to receive the Holy Ghost. It was Cornelius' righteousness that made him acceptable to YHWH, as pointed out in verse 35.

Acts 9:36 36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did (Second Tablet of the Law) (KJV)

Both Dorcas and Cornelius gave alms to the needy? This is taught by Judaism to result in a life that is honoring to God and the fruit of which earns one Eternal Life. Is it an accident that we see a resurrection from the dead of a person where the only thing mentioned is that she "did good works" and "gave alms" which just happens to be obedience to the Second Tablet of the Law?

You are wrong on the Orthodox. They do not ALL use the term "purgatory" but they do believe in the possibility of purification after death, and they have no problem with, and encourage, prayer for the dead.

I take the Orthodox at their word. They do not believe in purgatory.

As Kolokotronis said in his post 81...

"The Church of Constantinople rejects completely the notion of purgatory. It is a matter of faith that no soul can, by any action after death including suffering, affect its eternal destiny. We spend eternity with God after the Last Judgment not because we in any way are worthy of that but rather because of God's mercy.

"The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory."

No Orthodox uses the word “purgatory” to describe anything we believe in, K58. We do indeed pray for the souls of the dead in that we ask God to show mercy on them, to forgive their every sin because there is no man who lives and does not sin and to establish them where the Righteous repose, but there is absolutely nothing that the souls themselves can do or go through to alter their eternal situation.

We do indeed pray for the souls of the dead in that we ask God to show mercy on them, to forgive their every sin because there is no man who lives and does not sin and to establish them where the Righteous repose, but there is absolutely nothing that the souls themselves can do or go through to alter their eternal situation.

Nothing you have said above contradicts the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Purgatory is not a place for souls to redeem themselves after death -- it is a process of cleansing performed by God, and not anything by which the soul itself can participate in. More on this in my reply to boatbums, coming up.

Can you recommend any books on Orthodox history or beliefs?

Your words pretty much match what I said. Your original post on Purgatory, though, does not claim it is only a state of mind in this present life on earth.

You're right that Fr. Hardon's article is not very clear on this point. The Catholic Catechism however is clear that the Church remains neutral on whether Purgatory is a state or place.

The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a state of purgation, or purification, for those who are in a state of grace and friendship with God (cf. Rom. 11:22). These side effects, or temporal effects of sin operate in either this life or the next, and can result from inordinate attachment to creatures, or as a result of possessing a will that is not fully united with God's will. This purification involves suffering (St. Paul uses the analogy of fire to emphasize this), as God's fiery love "burns" away all impurities that may remain. Once this is complete, at death, the soul enters into God's presence, the beatific vision, in which the perfect bliss of beholding Him face-to-face lasts forever.

You can think of purgatory, from a Catholic perspective -- whether it is a state in this life or the next -- as something like a divine emergency room for souls, the process through which God, the Divine Physician, removes all traces of venial sins unrepented before death and heals the self-inflicted wounds of serious sin that we accumulate in this life. In purgatory, our wounds are healed, the scars are erased, and our souls are scrubbed clean by the shed Blood of the Lamb, made ready to enter into the eternal wedding feast we call heaven. (See Matt. 22). So, for example, all those regrets, all the guilt and shame, is wiped away.

It also helps to understand what purgatory is not. First, purgatory is not a place where people go to get a "second chance" from God, as Hebrews 9:27 makes clear. Second, purgatory is not a place where the soul works, earns, or in any other way does something to cleanse himself; all purification that takes place in purgatory is done by God to the soul. Those who go through purgatory are assured of their salvation: there is nothing for them to do--Christ does it all in His merciful act of preparing His beloved to enter into the wedding feat. The Catechism states:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." (CCC 1030)

Third, purgatory is not where people end up who are "too good" to go to hell and "not good enough" to go to heaven. This is a thrd common misunderstanding of this doctrine. There is no such thing as a "middle ground" when it comes to salvation. As Christ explained in His teaching about the sheep and the goats in Matt. 25:31-46, there are only two ultimate eternal destinations, heaven and hell.

Since there are only two ultimate destinies possible for all human beings, heaven or hell, the issue of purgatory must be understood simply as a part of the process for some souls destined for heaven. If you die unrepentant in the state of mortal sin, you will go to hell. If you die in a state of grace and friendship with God, you will go to heaven. You may first need to be purified of any lingering sins or selishness, however minor, that would block your complete union with the all-holy God, but that purification--purgatory--is simply a prelude to your receiving your eternal reward.

To summarize, then, purgatory is a finite process of purification carried out by God, through his fiery love, on the soul of one who is in a state of grace and is destined for heaven. What we both described is the suffering that results from sin among the saved -- not so much as a punishment, per se, but as a loving process of cleansing and purifying that God uses to bring us to Him (Catholic nevertheless call this "temporal punishment," but 'punishment' seems to be an awkward word to describe it--whereas as 'consequence' seems a better translation). There is a joy in the suffering -- a hope -- and so it is quite bearable. When it is described in ways that are frightening, I suspect the concept is being used incorrectly as a way to manipulate people, and I would reject that use of the doctrine of purgatory.

A key point however is that the purgation has no connection with the infinite penalty (hell) merited by our sin. Only Jesus Christ, through His saving death on the cross, is capable of expiating and remitting the eternal penalties due to our sins. Purgatory deals with the side effects of sins that may remain.

In 1 Cor 3, St. Paul described this final purification performed by God on the soul of a Christian, a process that involves suffering.

I don't think anyone would have heartburn if this was truly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, but it isn't really.

Currently the doctrine of purgatory is still in need of clarification by the Church's Magisterium. The Church considers it a mystery with regard to whether it is a state or place. My description of "purgatory" that I gave you is completely consistent, and harmonious, with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. You might find other accounts by Catholics that are different -- that take purgatory as a literal place -- and that would not be considered heresy.

Personally I think it is childish to think of Purgatory as a place. It results from a tendency to take eternal things and understand them in terms of temporal, finite things. In the afterlife, the reality of heaven, hell and purgatory will not be bound by the laws of space and time that we currently experience in this life. It seems we get much closer to what the concept means when we tie it back to our direct experience, as saved Christians, who do in fact suffer consequences as a result of our sin, because God through His grace wants us to learn to love the good and hate evil.

The primary difference among Catholics, including myself, and Protestants, is that we believe the suffering of purgatory -- the purgation or purification of sin -- can continue after death, as part of the process by which we are prepared for heaven. We pray for the dead to be delivered quickly from this process.

The main reason so many non-RCC people object to the teaching is because it implies we must suffer for our sins after we die and that faith in Christ's sacrifice on the cross, as the complete payment for sin, is not enough.

Christ died for our sins, yes, and He forgives our sins when we have a contrite heart. For this reason we are 'saved' in the sense that we are justified. However, for Catholics, the process of justification is completed through time in a process of sanctification. It does not usually happen all at once (although this is possible for some), but often requires a 'purging' of attachments to sin. Christ paid our debt for all sins, so that we would avoid eternal damnation, and on that we agree--but how we are purified of that sin, through the grace of God, is where we differ. The Catholics understand redemptive suffering, and participation in the cross of Christ, as a gift of God's grace -- so that we can be grafted to Christ's Body, as His Church, and become sanctified.

Here are some verses to support this Catholic soterology:

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. … For Jews demand signs [stupendous miracles] and Greeks seek wisdom [innovative explanations of the world], but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men” (1 Cor 1:18, 22-25).

“In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and begin made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek” (Heb 5:7-10).

“For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken; for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort” (2 Cor 1:5-7).

“But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6:14).

And here is a clear and unambigous support for purgation as a form of purification, a uniting the soul to the flesh of Christ's redemptive sacrifice:

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24).

Likewise, these verses:

“For the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil 1:29).

The Apostle understands that suffering for Christ’s sake purifies us of selfishness and unites us to Jesus’ redemptive work. Then speaking of himself he added:

“I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ. … and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” (Phil 3:8, 10-11).

So, the Scriptures seem clear on this notion of purgation; the question is really then a matter of whether or not this process of purgation happens only in this life or can also continue in the next. As a Catholic, I hold that purgation can (though need not) continue in the afterlife, as a final preparation for Heaven, which for the saved is certain.

If you truly believe: But those of us who are saved -- who are justified by our faith -- are called through grace to perform good works, which testify to our faith. I rejoice because you really get do it.

Yes! Most Catholics DO get it! We're not that different, really, but our differences get exaggerated with straw man arguments, and one-upmanship in debates--on both sides. I believe Satan wishes us to remain divided, and will do everything he can within his power to fan the flames. You can feel the presence of the evil one in many of these debates. He must delight in our squabbling. And I do not claim innocent--I realize I also sometimes give in to temptation and allow myself to get drawn into un-Christian mannes of responding. Hopefully, we all have enough forgiveness to go around.

In any case, yes, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, and grace gives us the ability to have faith, and that faith is visible through our works -- in our process of sanctification which follows justification. We even seem to agree that this process of sanctification can involve a process of suffering, which is consistent with St. Paul's soteriology. Where we disagree is the extent to which such suffering may continue for a short time, for some of the saved, after death, prior to their going to heaven.

Thank GOD we Protestants who are saved know we won’t ever have to be in Purgatory. I guess that’s only for Catholics, LOL.

You pray and repent, asking Him to forgive you, and He cleanses you from your sin. That’s it. Nothing complicated. It’s his desire to do that for you when you ask in sincerity and repentance.

We do indeed pray for the souls of the dead in that we ask God to show mercy on them,

An additional comment: If there is no purgatory, per Orthodox doctrine, there is no reason to pray for the dead. They would be in Hell without possibility of redemption, or in Heaven, without need of redemption. Praying for the dead implies the doctrine of purgatory, it seems to me, whether or not one rejects the term.

He cleanses you from your sin.

Yes, Catholics agree. But HOW does He cleanse your sin? And Scriptural support for your answer is appreciated.