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To: boatbums
Your words pretty much match what I said. Your original post on Purgatory, though, does not claim it is only a state of mind in this present life on earth.

You're right that Fr. Hardon's article is not very clear on this point. The Catholic Catechism however is clear that the Church remains neutral on whether Purgatory is a state or place.

The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a state of purgation, or purification, for those who are in a state of grace and friendship with God (cf. Rom. 11:22). These side effects, or temporal effects of sin operate in either this life or the next, and can result from inordinate attachment to creatures, or as a result of possessing a will that is not fully united with God's will. This purification involves suffering (St. Paul uses the analogy of fire to emphasize this), as God's fiery love "burns" away all impurities that may remain. Once this is complete, at death, the soul enters into God's presence, the beatific vision, in which the perfect bliss of beholding Him face-to-face lasts forever.

You can think of purgatory, from a Catholic perspective -- whether it is a state in this life or the next -- as something like a divine emergency room for souls, the process through which God, the Divine Physician, removes all traces of venial sins unrepented before death and heals the self-inflicted wounds of serious sin that we accumulate in this life. In purgatory, our wounds are healed, the scars are erased, and our souls are scrubbed clean by the shed Blood of the Lamb, made ready to enter into the eternal wedding feast we call heaven. (See Matt. 22). So, for example, all those regrets, all the guilt and shame, is wiped away.

It also helps to understand what purgatory is not. First, purgatory is not a place where people go to get a "second chance" from God, as Hebrews 9:27 makes clear. Second, purgatory is not a place where the soul works, earns, or in any other way does something to cleanse himself; all purification that takes place in purgatory is done by God to the soul. Those who go through purgatory are assured of their salvation: there is nothing for them to do--Christ does it all in His merciful act of preparing His beloved to enter into the wedding feat. The Catechism states:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." (CCC 1030)

Third, purgatory is not where people end up who are "too good" to go to hell and "not good enough" to go to heaven. This is a thrd common misunderstanding of this doctrine. There is no such thing as a "middle ground" when it comes to salvation. As Christ explained in His teaching about the sheep and the goats in Matt. 25:31-46, there are only two ultimate eternal destinations, heaven and hell.

Since there are only two ultimate destinies possible for all human beings, heaven or hell, the issue of purgatory must be understood simply as a part of the process for some souls destined for heaven. If you die unrepentant in the state of mortal sin, you will go to hell. If you die in a state of grace and friendship with God, you will go to heaven. You may first need to be purified of any lingering sins or selishness, however minor, that would block your complete union with the all-holy God, but that purification--purgatory--is simply a prelude to your receiving your eternal reward.

To summarize, then, purgatory is a finite process of purification carried out by God, through his fiery love, on the soul of one who is in a state of grace and is destined for heaven. What we both described is the suffering that results from sin among the saved -- not so much as a punishment, per se, but as a loving process of cleansing and purifying that God uses to bring us to Him (Catholic nevertheless call this "temporal punishment," but 'punishment' seems to be an awkward word to describe it--whereas as 'consequence' seems a better translation). There is a joy in the suffering -- a hope -- and so it is quite bearable. When it is described in ways that are frightening, I suspect the concept is being used incorrectly as a way to manipulate people, and I would reject that use of the doctrine of purgatory.

A key point however is that the purgation has no connection with the infinite penalty (hell) merited by our sin. Only Jesus Christ, through His saving death on the cross, is capable of expiating and remitting the eternal penalties due to our sins. Purgatory deals with the side effects of sins that may remain.

In 1 Cor 3, St. Paul described this final purification performed by God on the soul of a Christian, a process that involves suffering.

I don't think anyone would have heartburn if this was truly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, but it isn't really.

Currently the doctrine of purgatory is still in need of clarification by the Church's Magisterium. The Church considers it a mystery with regard to whether it is a state or place. My description of "purgatory" that I gave you is completely consistent, and harmonious, with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. You might find other accounts by Catholics that are different -- that take purgatory as a literal place -- and that would not be considered heresy.

Personally I think it is childish to think of Purgatory as a place. It results from a tendency to take eternal things and understand them in terms of temporal, finite things. In the afterlife, the reality of heaven, hell and purgatory will not be bound by the laws of space and time that we currently experience in this life. It seems we get much closer to what the concept means when we tie it back to our direct experience, as saved Christians, who do in fact suffer consequences as a result of our sin, because God through His grace wants us to learn to love the good and hate evil.

The primary difference among Catholics, including myself, and Protestants, is that we believe the suffering of purgatory -- the purgation or purification of sin -- can continue after death, as part of the process by which we are prepared for heaven. We pray for the dead to be delivered quickly from this process.

The main reason so many non-RCC people object to the teaching is because it implies we must suffer for our sins after we die and that faith in Christ's sacrifice on the cross, as the complete payment for sin, is not enough.

Christ died for our sins, yes, and He forgives our sins when we have a contrite heart. For this reason we are 'saved' in the sense that we are justified. However, for Catholics, the process of justification is completed through time in a process of sanctification. It does not usually happen all at once (although this is possible for some), but often requires a 'purging' of attachments to sin. Christ paid our debt for all sins, so that we would avoid eternal damnation, and on that we agree--but how we are purified of that sin, through the grace of God, is where we differ. The Catholics understand redemptive suffering, and participation in the cross of Christ, as a gift of God's grace -- so that we can be grafted to Christ's Body, as His Church, and become sanctified.

Here are some verses to support this Catholic soterology:

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. … For Jews demand signs [stupendous miracles] and Greeks seek wisdom [innovative explanations of the world], but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men” (1 Cor 1:18, 22-25).

“In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and begin made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek” (Heb 5:7-10).

“For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken; for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort” (2 Cor 1:5-7).

“But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6:14).

And here is a clear and unambigous support for purgation as a form of purification, a uniting the soul to the flesh of Christ's redemptive sacrifice:

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24).

Likewise, these verses:

“For the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil 1:29).

The Apostle understands that suffering for Christ’s sake purifies us of selfishness and unites us to Jesus’ redemptive work. Then speaking of himself he added:

“I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ. … and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” (Phil 3:8, 10-11).

So, the Scriptures seem clear on this notion of purgation; the question is really then a matter of whether or not this process of purgation happens only in this life or can also continue in the next. As a Catholic, I hold that purgation can (though need not) continue in the afterlife, as a final preparation for Heaven, which for the saved is certain.

If you truly believe: But those of us who are saved -- who are justified by our faith -- are called through grace to perform good works, which testify to our faith. I rejoice because you really get do it.

Yes! Most Catholics DO get it! We're not that different, really, but our differences get exaggerated with straw man arguments, and one-upmanship in debates--on both sides. I believe Satan wishes us to remain divided, and will do everything he can within his power to fan the flames. You can feel the presence of the evil one in many of these debates. He must delight in our squabbling. And I do not claim innocent--I realize I also sometimes give in to temptation and allow myself to get drawn into un-Christian mannes of responding. Hopefully, we all have enough forgiveness to go around.

In any case, yes, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, and grace gives us the ability to have faith, and that faith is visible through our works -- in our process of sanctification which follows justification. We even seem to agree that this process of sanctification can involve a process of suffering, which is consistent with St. Paul's soteriology. Where we disagree is the extent to which such suffering may continue for a short time, for some of the saved, after death, prior to their going to heaven.
236 posted on 07/22/2009 10:44:38 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner
Very nice post. I have a little question though.

The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a state of purgation, or purification, for those who are in a state of grace and friendship with God (cf. Rom. 11:22). These side effects, or temporal effects of sin operate in either this life or the next, and can result from inordinate attachment to creatures, or as a result of possessing a will that is not fully united with God's will.

or as a result of possessing a will that is not fully united with God's will.

Is that a sin or the result of a temporal effect from sin?

248 posted on 07/22/2009 11:22:31 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: bdeaner
I think we have a deep disagreement regarding the purpose of suffering in a Christian's life and the world in general.

First of all, why is there suffering in this world, why do the innocent suffer, why do bad things happen to good people, etc.? We live in a fallen world. Because of the sin of Adam, this world (the physical world) as well as humans, became subject to death. There is degeneration, disorder, degradation, disease, death, rot, rust, weeds, putrification, decomposition, etc. It is a consequence of a fallen world. It is never to be mistaken for heaven.

Do innocents suffer? Yes, both as a result of actions of human depravity (abortion, child abuse, murder,etc.) and the fact that this is a world that will never be perfect again. In fact God says that he will create a new world one day that will be perfect. There will no longer be pain or suffering or tears. God is certainly grieved by this.

Secondly, what is God's purpose for suffering in a Christian's life? I believe, rather than a punishment for, or revenge, or getting even with sins, it is instead a teaching mechanism. An example: If I hammer a nail into my nice new dining room table, I can bewail my stupidity and remove the nail but the table will still have a hole in it and can never be the same. The consequence of my action is the marring of the table, the loss of its beauty, its newness. If I cheat on my husband, the consequence is the guilt, shame, remorse, the loss of his trust and the possible end of my marriage. I suffer because of my sin but only in this life. As a Christian, even a grave sin such as adultery is paid for by the blood of Christ. I can never pay the eternal price for even one sin, much less all the ones I have committed or will commit. This by no means is meant to say I have a license to sin. Because my Heavenly Father knows everything and nothing is hidden from His sight. He will discipline, not punish. And this discipline is not pleasant. He brings this correction because He loves me and wants what is best for my life. He also wants the return of fellowship that sin has cut off. Another purpose of suffering in a believer's life is to strengthen faith. I have known loss and need. I know what being dead broke and hungry feels like. I also have seen how God provides, even miraculously, when I trust Him. I have a promise from the Lord that no trial or temptation will come that he will not give me the grace and strength to endure and make it through. Trials and sufferings make me stronger emotionally and spiritually. When others see a Christian suffer without complaining or saying, "Why me?" , they can be influenced to seek the reasons why in spite of pain a person still trusts God, still has peace. That people were martyred for their faith and endured the most horrible deaths is a testimony to their true commitment to God.

These are just a few points where I wanted to express how we see suffering differently. You may see it as a co-payment for sin, I see it entirely with a greater purpose.

313 posted on 07/22/2009 3:25:51 PM PDT by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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