Posted on 07/11/2009 6:11:46 AM PDT by GonzoII
Really? I have read the scriptures and no where does it say that Christ started the Catholic Church so you need to get over that misinformation. Also Christ preached about a personal relationship with God not being forgiven through your priest. Also where is Mary named in the Bible as someone with special significance? Christ never even calls Mary his “mother” he calls her woman, plus she had other children so she is no longer a virgin.
. We do not allow divorce and remrriage.
Unless you have enough money to get an annulment.
He pays special attention to her requests (as He did at the wedding feast at Cana)
He says “woman why do you bother me with such requests as my time has not yet come”. To say that Christ is honoring Mary is to pervert the scriptures. Christ never paid “special” attention to Mary anymore so than he paid attention to other sinners, and yes Mary was a sinner and can say no special prayers for you.
You wrote:
“The posted article claims Catholics have a higher standard - “Non-Catholic Churches do not exact so high a standard of their followers as does the Catholic Church of hers.””
Actually THE CATHOLIC CHURCH has a higher standard. That’s what the quote says. And that’s the truth.
“So I pointed out that many Catholics feel very free to ignore that standard, whatever it is, and a standard that followers are not held to is not a standard you can boast about.”
And do you think those Catholics are living up to the standards of the Catholic Church?
“If I started a school, and boasted that OUR students had to be rocket scientists, you’d be well within your rights to point out that 45% failed to meet grade standards set by the state.”
That’s a lousy analogy. The Church is a hospital for sinners. It’s standard is perfection - as set by God Himself - bt all the patients, no matter what the standards, are still ill with sin.
“You don’t allow divorce - but you allow annulments.”
So what? A divorce is not an annulment. And an annulment is not a divorce. Pointing out we have annulments while Protestants allow divorce and remarriage (generally) does not show a high standard for Protestants and does not show a low standard for Catholics.
“You rather oddly don’t allow birth control, but very few Catholics pay any attention to that restriction.”
Again, the Church has high standards. The very fact that so many people fail to meet it shows how high that standard is. All you’re doing is showing that the Catholic standard is higher than the Protestant one.
“Shoot - Catholics are more likely to accept abortion than Evangelicals.”
No. I know some polls say that, but I don’t buy it for a second according to what a Catholic actually is. Also, again, the standards say othewise. The fact that people fail to meet it shows how high it is. Evangelical Protestantism in a sense can’t even claim to have a standard because they all disagree as to what it is. Almost all so-called evangelicals believe abortion is just fine in some circumstances. I remember being shocked when the supposedly pro-life Jerry Falwell (or was it Pat Robertson?) when he said abortion was okay in some cases. Those are leaders. Where are our religious leaders who actually advocate abortion? No where. Higher standards.
“I did not write nor post the article. I’m only commenting that it is unfair to boast of having such high standards if your adherents don’t pay attention to them.”
But millions of them to pay attention to them. I’m one of them. You have millions of Protestants who religiously (pun intended) adhere to your lower standards too. And even those lower standards are at least close to orthodoxy in some ways.
“Hopefully, NO Protestant ‘sects’ claim that. Protestants use the Scripture for a guide, and I don’t remember any verses about condoms in the Bible.”
And abortion isn’t in the Bible either. Not a single verse. You might want to contact Protestants Against Birth Control and read the book by the Protestant Charles Provan called the Bible and Birth Control. Some things were so OBVIOUS to the ancient Jews that it apparently didn’t need to be stated in scripture.
“So - how many Catholics OBEY your no birth control standard?”
Not enough. How many non-Catholics obey the lower Protestant standards and murder the unborn and not allow the next generation of Christians to be born? Too many.
You wrote:
“Unless you have enough money to get an annulment.”
Anyone who deserves the annulment gets the annulment without cost if they can’t afford the court costs. I know the chancellor of my diocese extremely well. I’ve known him for 14 years. The annulment court (tribunal) fee is less than $300 and I know someone who got the annulment and paid nothing. Apparently you don’t know about the whole process or the costs or the fact that those who can’t pay don’t. I’m glad I could enlighten you. ;)
“...most tribunals charge anywhere from $200 to $1,000 for adjudicating a standard nullity case. A few charge somewhat over $1,000, and several CHARGE NOTHING AT ALL.”
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909fea2.asp
Man made rules rather than divine commandments, it is legalistic and smacks of pharisee.
“Actually THE CATHOLIC CHURCH has a higher standard.”
God’s standard might be more appropriate to worry about. In Matthew 5, Jesus points out that God’s standard is too high for even the Pharisees to live by - and too high for any man to live by - and we thus need a Savior.
“I know some polls say that, but I don’t buy it for a second according to what a Catholic actually is.”
So any Catholic who doesn’t live by this standard ceases to be a Catholic? Is Pelosi a Catholic? If not, has she been excommunicated?
“Almost all so-called evangelicals believe abortion is just fine in some circumstances.”
I’ve never met one. As a matter of politics and knowing the weakness of man, many would allow a rape/incest exception, but all that I’ve ever met agree that abortion isn’t admirable in those cases. The Law of Moses, knowing the weakness of man, allowed divorce, and it is described as perfect. But I haven’t met an evangelical who calls abortion “just fine”.
You wrote:
“God’s standard might be more appropriate to worry about.”
In terms of abortion, birth control and divorce and remarriage they are one in the same.
“In Matthew 5, Jesus points out that God’s standard is too high for even the Pharisees to live by - and too high for any man to live by - and we thus need a Savior.”
And yet Jesus said divorce was wrong, but that Moses had lowered that standard. So who wanted higher standards? Moses or Jesus?
“So any Catholic who doesn’t live by this standard ceases to be a Catholic?”
He certainly isn’t a Catholic in good standing in the moral realm. And any Catholic who denies Catholic doctrine is clearly placing himself outside of the Church. Why do you think so many orthodox Catholics were upset about Notre Dame inviting Obama?
“Is Pelosi a Catholic?”
No. She only calls herself one.
“If not, has she been excommunicated?”
She excommunicated herself years ago.
“I’ve never met one.”
Then you don’t know many evangelicals. A year before Roe v. Wade the Southern Baptist Convention decided to support legislation allowing abortion in limited cases (a euphmism for rape and incest cases). Did you know that? That’s the largest evangelical body in America and they’ve been proudly pro-abort (ahem, in limited cases since the early 1970s.
“As a matter of politics and knowing the weakness of man, many would allow a rape/incest exception, but all that I’ve ever met agree that abortion isn’t admirable in those cases.”
Isn’t admirable? Murder of an innocent child isn’t admirable? Wow, talk about a lower standard.
“The Law of Moses, knowing the weakness of man, allowed divorce, and it is described as perfect. But I haven’t met an evangelical who calls abortion “just fine”.”
No, just “isn’t admirable”. Sounds “just fine” to me.
C'mon, you guys are too funny...Pelosie ex communicated herself??? Go ahead and ask her if she ex communicated herself...
The thing that totally excapes you religious types is that the Chruch of God is spiritual...You can no more add a soul to His church than you can remove one...
So annulment is sort of a do over? Sounds like a divorce to me.
From a site:
The Southern Baptist Convention
initially called for legislation in 1971 that would allow for the possibility of abortions under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe to fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother. In 1976, the convention changed its position to oppose abortions used as a means of birth control. In 1980, the convention strengthened its position by supporting legislation and/or a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion except to save the life of the mother. In recent years the Southern Baptist Convention has taken an active leadership role in supporting pro-life legislation, including backing the PBA Ban Act and opposing FOCA and other pro-abortion measures. The convention has also developed a broad range of pro-life educational material for all levels, including a comprehensive pro-life Sunday school curricula and materials for Sanctity of Life Sunday in January.
“Called for legislation” being the operative word here. Unlike any other denomination, the SBC has NO jurisdiction over the local SBC church. NONE. Their resolutions are non-binding in terms of legislating what the local church does or does not do.
The posters urging you to place Biblical Standards above a particular denomination are indeed correct. As a Southern Baptist, I have no more nor less chance of salvation than you as a Catholic. It is NOT my denomination which will save or damn me - but my relationship to Christ. Standing in a garage doesn’t make one a car. God will not ask you to what denomination you belonged when you stand before Him.
Besides Christ was Jewish why would he start the “Catholic” as oppossed to the catholic church?
The word “catholic” means “universal”. It claims the universality of Christ’s church makes it open to all: all classes, both genders, all nationalities. It implies that the Body of Christ is not limited to a time, place, race or culture. “Then Jesus approached and said to them, ‘All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you’”. (Matthew 28:18-20) No where do I read baptize them into the only Church that God recognizes the Catholic Church.
“Outside the Church no salvation,”
This title is a complete joke. It should read “Outside of Christ there is no Salvation” or is the “Catholic Church” claiming to be a higher authority than Christ?
This whole program is a bunch of Bovine Squeeze. I don’t care if you are Catholic or Rastafarian without a relationship and acceptance of Jesus Christ you are going to Hell. These heretics that call themselves priests will no doubt be cooking with you.
I do not understand what you mean. Why would any discussion about Christianity be inappropriate on an open forum?
Inflamitory.
Unfortunately denominational division is a sure invitation for disputes that are not constructive.
There will be no denominations is heaven, but we have them here.
Perspective of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, and others bring disputes that should not take place. In your face hostile remarks only divide us.
I have experienced this recently during some history discussion forums. What happened in the distant past is never agreed on by opposing sides.
The U.S. was founded Religious outcasts from Europe. That persecution is possibly one of the reasons we have succeeded so well as a nation. We knew instinctively what not to do, because of the abuses in Europe.
I am not apologetic about being a Christian, but do not like sectarian disputes.
The Catholic Church is the only one that traces its line of leadership and doctrine directly from Christ to today. The earliest Christians considered themselves catholic as you defined it and practiced the Mass as Christ commanded. God not only recognizes the Catholic Church, He started it.
Yes, Christ said that and then did exactly what she asked Him to do: help her friends. Mary was Christ’s mother and, therefore, more special to Him than the average person. Mary was not a sinner: her DNA was used to create Christ’s, and God cannot join Himself to any imperfection. This means that Mary was sinless so that she could carry Christ and their blood could mingle.
The scriptures tell us that an archangel called her “blessed among all women” and “full of grace.” He said she had found favor with God and was selected for this honor. Christ performed His first miracle at her request. She walked to Calvary with Christ. She was revered by the apostles and with them for the Pentecost. Christ made sure His favorite apostle took care of her following His death. There is a lot of evidence in Scripture that Mary was extremely special to God and Christ.
Dmitry, Christ started a church and promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it forever and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. He breathed on the apostles and gave them special gifts and authority. They set up a church that practiced the Mass and had a hierarchy and sacraments. The Catholic Church is the only church that traces its line of leadership, Mass, traditions, sacraments, and beliefs directly back to that church started by Christ and the apostles. The Church called itself Catholic long before Martin Luther broke away from it. Like it or not, the Catholic Church is the only one that shares the complete history of Christ’s Church.
My previous post outlines the places in scripture where Mary is named as significant. If you know the customs of the people of Galilee, you know that calling someone “Woman” was not unusual or derogatory. It was a form of address commonly used. Mary never had other children; in Christ’s day, cousins were also called brothers. Christ had cousins. Christ’s birth was a virgin, miraculous birth.
If you do some historical research using the earliest versions of the Gospels, you will find most of your objections are overcome.
This is what cults do.
Cults brainwash people into believing that their cult, their cult ceremonies, their anointed cult sacraments, and cult priesthood, is the one and only path to salvation. If they leave the cult they will be damned. It doesn't matter if the cult leadership is corrupt and/or completely ineffectual, if one leaves the cult, they are damned.
Wow! Am I ever glad that I found Christ, and broke free of the cult-like hold of the Catholic Church! It is through Him and His atonement that I am saved...not...a cult-like church.
There is much about the Catholic Church that is true, and I respect Catholics who truly practice their religion....but...PLEASE, in this one area of it claiming to be the “true” church..please. TRUCE PLEASE!
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