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It has saved. That man's sins have been forgiven.

But here's the problem I see with this position: Once a man has been "forgiven" (i.e., is thus promoted to the "elect" of the saved), on the basis of justification merely by virtue of the sacrifice of the Cross), does this relieve him of his responsibility for leading a life in this world that follows Christ? Or even a life that is even remotely human?

I mean, if we are "told" by the Holy Spirit that we are "already chosen for salvation," (regardless of whether we wanted to be chosen in the first place, or whether such "chosenness," such election, imposes any further duties upon us), then once "chosen," in what way is any contribution from the human side of this problem in any way meaningful to God's plan of salvation?

I mean, if we are already "chosen," then one would think we've "already made the grade," and so nothing further is required of us. Worse, if we are already "chosen," i.e., "saved," that would seem to constitute a warrant to do whatever we want to. If "election" and "justification" are alone sufficient, then even a Hitler, if qualified as "elect" and "justified" before God, could do whatever he wanted to, without at all disturbing his future (immortal) prospects.

Plus under this scenario, there is also the problem of the seemingly arbitary nature of God's chosing in the first place. How can a just God pick some for winners, and some for losers, in the great economy of Salvation?

But here's the problem I see with this position: Once a man has been "forgiven" (i.e., is thus promoted to the "elect" of the saved), on the basis of justification merely by virtue of the sacrifice of the Cross), does this relieve him of his responsibility for leading a life in this world that follows Christ? Or even a life that is even remotely human?

The problem is the conflict between Romans 9:22 ("vessels of wrath"), and Phillipians 2:12-16 ("work out your own salvation with fear and trembling").

They appear to be irreconcilable, don't they?

And then of course you always have Matthew 13:24-31 (wheat and the tares which *look* indistinguishable until the end) , Hebrews 10:29 ("trampled the Son of God underfoot"), and 1 John 2:19 ("would have remained with us")...

These seem to argue against the "once saved always saved", as does 1 Cor. 4:4 ("I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted.")

Curiouser and curiouser -- almost as though He doesn't want us to judge, not even ourselves, so we will not be tempted to pride and/or self-righteousness indirectly.

Cheers!

Once a man has been "forgiven" (i.e., is thus promoted to the "elect" of the saved), on the basis of justification merely by virtue of the sacrifice of the Cross), does this relieve him of his responsibility for leading a life in this world that follows Christ?

It not only does NOT relieve him of his responsibility to follow Christ, it is what enables any man to follow Christ in the first place.

The natural man cannot follow Christ because he does not understand the things of God. A man must be born again by the HS into a spiritual man before he can do anything God-pleasing.

And we don't decide to rebirth ourselves. It is a free gift of God's mercy.

Also, men aren't "promoted to the elect." God's election is known to Him from before the foundation of the world. At a time of God's choosing, a man's adoption by God will become evident in his life by the fact that he will know it is all true - Christ is his Lord, King and Savior. As blue-duncan once quote...

"The whole sacrificial system was poor copy of the reality that was in heaven and looked forward to it breaking into time. A believers life will catch up with his election in time. At present, believers are seen as perfect in Christ and yet our sanctification is in process and ultimately when we are in the presence of Jesus our sanctification will catch up with the perfection that God sees us in now." -- blue-duncan (9/30/06)

Or even a life that is even remotely human?

Not sure what that means. If you mean that we still sin, yes, the acquitted man still sins. However, through his sanctification by the HS he learns to loathe his sin because it takes him away from God whom he now has come to love. Thus, by the gift of the indwelling HS, that man sins less and less and loves God more and more.

I mean, if we are already "chosen," then one would think we've "already made the grade," and so nothing further is required of us.

Nothing more is required for our justification but the blood of Christ given to us by God. It's a pity some think that isn't enough. BB, as a believer, your sins have been forgiven you. Tomorrow's as well as today's. Your faith has identified you as one of Christ's sheep and He will lose none of them.

Worse, if we are already "chosen," i.e., "saved," that would seem to constitute a warrant to do whatever we want to.

Do you have so little faith in the power of the HS and the intentions of God? If we are His, the good fruit of our life will attest to that fact.

If "election" and "justification" are alone sufficient, then even a Hitler, if qualified as "elect" and "justified" before God, could do whatever he wanted to, without at all disturbing his future (immortal) prospects.

None of us knows the names of the elect, but we know men by their fruits. Hitler's certainly reveals him to most likely be burning in hell.

God is not arbitrary, but why He chooses to redeem some men by the blood of Christ and leave other men in their fallen state of condemnation is not for us to know. But an understanding of God's merciful election brings true humility -- salvation is not due to anything He finds in me, but for what He gives me, by and for and through Christ alone.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Eph. 1:4-6

Thank you all so very much for sharing your testimonies and insights!

betty boop: But here's the problem I see with this position: Once a man has been "forgiven" (i.e., is thus promoted to the "elect" of the saved), on the basis of justification merely by virtue of the sacrifice of the Cross), does this relieve him of his responsibility for leading a life in this world that follows Christ? Or even a life that is even remotely human?

I do not see a problem because if a Christian loves God surpassingly above all else, of course He knows of a certainty that God IS and He loves Him and believes Him and trusts Him; disobedience is not conceivable except as an unwillful incident which he deplores when it happens, repents of and immediately is forgiven and restored.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. - I John 1:5-7

An example on a smaller scale might be the love that we have for our husbands or wives. Obedience is not an issue. Because we love him, we want what he wants, we rejoice when he rejoices, we hurt when he hurts, we don’t doubt him and we meld into his life.

Indeed, when my husband died I honestly couldn’t tell you whether I wanted a cheeseburger because I liked them or because he did.

At any rate, we have God’s blessed assurance and need never be troubled by anything.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. – John 10:29

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. - I John 4:4

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. – 2 Timothy 1:12

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. – Philippians 4:7-8

God’s Name is I AM.