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The key is to understand the meaning of the term "Church" in Vatican II.What the term 'Church' means in Vatican II is completely insignificant and irrelevant...

What the term 'church' means in the scripture is what's important...

The "Church" includes ALL of the instrumental means of salvation operating in the world through Christ and the Holy Spirit, no matter where that may be occurring. Protestants who have rejected the Catholic Church are still part of the Church, as long as they follow Christ and Scripture, but Protestants are not in FULL communion with the Church.

Sure...And if we go to the Mental Ward, the patients will tell us we're bonkers and they're normal...

What's mind boggling is how did they get you people to repeat this nonsense???

You may as well be telling a commercial fisherman how to rig his nets; or telling Tiger Woods that he should be driving with his sand wedge...

By refusing to learn from the infallibility teachings of the Magesterium

When your magisterium disagrees with the scripture (which it far too often does), we can and do throw them into the trash heap where they belong...

The teaching is coherent with ~~Scripture,~~ Tradition, and logic; the reasoning is not fallacious or contradictory when understood appropriately.

Fixed it for ya...Your tradition and your logic can not be found in scripture and it has no place in scripture...It has no place in Christianity...

God gave no one 'logic' to figure out the scripture...He gave us the Holy Spirit and more scripture to understand the scripture...

What the term 'Church' means in Vatican II is completely insignificant and irrelevant...

LOL. I think you missed the context of the discussion, Iscool. The meaning of "The Church" for Vatican II IS unquestionably relevant if the subject under discussion is the meaning of the "Church" for Catholics! The Vatican II council spent considerable energy clarifying the meaning of the Church.

It's simply not possible to mount a valid criticism of the Catholic doctrine on the Church without an understanding of the meaning of "Church" developed by Vatican II. On this thread, you Protestants have offered nothing more than straw man arguments of Church doctrine. So, I am telling you what in fact the Catholic Church professes, so that at least your criticisms are based on actual Church doctrine rather than straw men of your own wild imaginations. I really hope for your sake that you are not content to mount straw man arguments, because unless you are willing to address Church doctrine on its own terms, and criticize it from within its own logic using Scripture and reason, I don't think you are going to be persuading anyone to join you in your position. And even if you did, you'd just end up persuading them to become Catholic, because that's what you would end up becoming, if you followed the Truth of the Lord's Word.

You may as well be telling a commercial fisherman how to rig his nets; or telling Tiger Woods that he should be driving with his sand wedge...

!!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!! Ok, ok. So you're telling me that I should dispense with 2000 years of Church teachings, and the teachings of the early Church fathers who were contemporaries of the Apostles, and the work of many theologians, and the infallible teachings of the Magesterium --- just throw it all in the trash -- and instead listen to the "Tiger Woods" of Biblical hermeneutics, the gransmaster flash of Bible study, Iscool, some dude who hangs around on Free Republic bashing Catholics? Because after all, it's Iscool who canonized the Scripture and was promised by Christ to be the pillar and foundation of all Truth so that hell would not prevail against it? Right. Gee, how could I have missed your genius for so long, Iscool? You are actually the infallible one and us Catholics and the Pope really have no idea what we're talking about. Thanks for straightening us out. /sarc

Unbelievable.