Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
The teachings of the Catholic Church are protected from error by the Holy Spirit. They are without error.
How can one be "conformed to Christ, to His life" without good works of mercy and charity?
See the Holy Orders that I referenced above, given any time a priest is welcomed to the Church:
You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.
The words are direct and unequivocal. Regardless of his status as married or not. The candidate is required to observe chastity.
Furthermore, celibacy is and remains a voluntary vow.
Apparently your understanding is different from the oath taken by priests during ordination. They are required to observe chastity.
You are arguing from the general with a presumption it applies in the specific. You need to prove the specific. Even the Catechism paragraph you cite acknowledges this:
1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."70...Apparently your understanding is different from the oath taken by priests during ordination. They are required to observe chastity.
The vow is voluntary because becoming a priest is voluntary.
For example, Romans 6:
"3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."
It should have been 'We DIED with Christ, and we WILL live with him'. I apologize - the error was wholly mine. So we "must consider [our]selves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."
That is not correct; not even the Catholic Church claims that! Anything from the Ordinary Magisterium is by definition fallible.
Veneration of the Church is a dangerous thing... Since the Ordinary Magisterium is where 99% of the teachings of the Church come from, that means 99% of the teachings of the Church may in fact - per the Church's own dogma - be fallible.
Thank you. I think I will have to read your post more than once...
You are not the expert you claimed to be.
Veneration of the Church is a dangerous thing...
That's why I do not do that.
ALL priests take the Oath of Holy Orders. That Oath contains the words above. How you can claim that celibacy is not required when the Oath of Holy Orders requires it?
Apparently you do not understand the ordinary magisterium? I'd suggest learning about what your own Church believes. The ordinary magisterium is not infallible. Period. If you do not believe that, then you do not believe the teachings of your own Church.
The fault is yours.
Like so many fashionable iconoclasts trashing the Catholic Church, the problem isn't how much you know, but rather how much you know that just isn't true.
It was a mistake for me to ever get involved in this conversation because, as I anticipated, it's just a clever game of jousting and gotcha.
I believe so, as they all most be re-ordained. I will ask my cousin (Father Dan) about it...
It may now be different; prior to 1980 it wasn’t possible, as conversion of married priests from the Anglican church was not permitted.
Communion isn’t required to be saved. All thats required is to confess you are a sinner, declare Jesus is your savior and ask for forgiveness. You don’t even really need a priest or a pastor although having guidance does help many as they work out their issues.
Eph 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
John 6:46-51
46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.Hmmm. I can believe you, or I can believe Christ.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
---John 6:54-5
No contest.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
These teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium are referred to by then Cardinal Ratzinger, with particular wording, as “the non-infallible teaching of the Magisterium” and “non-irreformable magisterial teaching,” in the document issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith called 'The Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian,' n. 28 and 33. This wording demonstrates Cardinal Ratzinger's understanding that not all Magisterial teachings are infallible or irreformable.
You are at odds with your own Pope, and in fact - per that article - may be committing heresy.
This is also spelled out in the Catechism 891:
"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
The ordinary Magisterium is not given infallibility by the Catechism; only the supreme Magisterium.
Do not blame me for exposing you to the truth that your own Church - and your own Pope - teaches. You are the one that refuses to open your eyes and believe.
There is not game of "gotcha" here; there is only the revealing of the truth. Choose to not believe at the risk of excommunication from your own Church by professing heresy.
I completely agree. We are not saved by our own works.
We are saved by faith and works.
No, I'm not.
The ordinary Magisterium is not given infallibility by the Catechism; only the supreme Magisterium.
Congratulations! You have disproved something I did not claim.
There is not game of "gotcha" here...
Of course there is. See, if I had said "the deposit of Divine revelation," which is what I meant, then you could have saved yourself the time disproving what I did not say.
...there is only the revealing of the truth.
Thank you for referring to your explanation of Catholic teaching as "the revealing of the truth."
It's the brightest thing you've said all day.
Thats why that priest caught kissing a girl switched to be an Episcopal.
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