Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
Hey Guy!
Didn’t the Pope just declare “Faith alone” and also state that Luther was right all along?
Please correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks.
Why not provide a link to what you mean?
Please see John 6:60-65 for Jesus' explanation of that very statement you use.
The a married lay person in a local Catholic diocese can become a priest, correct?
Thanks for the reminder!
By pulling a single phrase out from the entire lesson of the Lord you can corrupt the meaning of that phrase.
Good thing I didn't do that.
Please see John 6:60-65 for Jesus' explanation of that very statement you use.
The explanation is not John 6:60-65. The explanation is John 6, plus the rest of the Bible.
Would that be sola scriptura that you are claiming? ;)
Didn't you tell me you were the expert?
Why are you asking me?
If I were claiming sola Scriptura I would have said so.
Christ chose unmarried Apostles, all men.
I like to defer to Him.
Born again is an idea that shows up repeatedly in the New Testament. We die with Christ, and are risen with him. "...if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation."
Justification is always in the past tense - at least, everywhere I can think of. No where does it say 'Have faith, do good deeds, and see what happens'.
As a practical matter, how can you tell for yourself, or others?
For myself, I have the Spirit within me..."5 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirsheirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."
With others, there is no certain way to tell. I had a roommate that I assumed was Christian, but one day he walked in and announced he had become a Buddhist. I girl I knew in college SEEMED like a Christian - but one evening, she was talking with a friend she had known for 10 years, and burst into tear. "I've never become a Christian", she cried.
"So, what are you waiting for?", replied Tip.
Meanwhile, I've seen non-Christians do many good things while denying God exists.
After all, even St Paul wrote: "12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
Because until 1980 a Roman Catholic priest (the Latin Rite of Catholicism) could not be married. And then it changed, when there weren't enough priests - suddenly Lutheran and Anglican priests could become Roman Catholic priests.
And of course, they are expected to take a vow of celibacy. Which is, of course, not Biblical (a married man to be celibate).
This is a case of the Catechism directly conflicting with the Bible, and taking precedence over the Bible. Married priests who are not celibate is, in fact, Biblical. The tradition of the Church is otherwise, though, and that is what currently reigns supreme.
As far as sola scriptura, your own words state literally that the rest of John 6 and the entire Bible define the meaning. That is a direct reliance on sola scriptura whether you claim it or not.
Peace brother, it is clear we will never come to any understanding. I will call you a fellow Christian and brother in Christ; I hope you will do the same!
Many Christians don't understand it because it isn't taught much. Preachers talk about the Lamb of GOD but most never go into in depth detail as to why Christ is called such and how Hebrew customs relate to ours. Notice the only ones in the Bible who continue the Passover Feast are Jewish.
Christ spoke sometimes literally and sometimes symbolic. In the Garden the night of his arrest he prayed "If it be possible may this cup be taken from me". The cup of course meaning His death. Christ was to face a fear He had never experienced and it wasn't death as some think. He knew He had the power over it. He feared not being in direct unison and fellowship with GOD. His final words on the cross was a real question. "MY GOD why has thou forsaken me?" Because of us and Christ in His eternal existence till then had not experienced this.
Those last few seconds of His earthly life are the most important ones ever. It was still within His power to come down from the cross. But He did not feel the presence of GOD. The reason He prayed what He did in the Garden.
We die with Christ, and are risen with him.we'll have to recognize that it is NOT saying "We are dying with Christ and are rising with Him."
I don't know the proper name of the present tense at use here, but it's the same as the statement "I drive on the right side of the road." That statement is true even though I'm not driving now. Or "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" does not refer to things happening at the present moment, but rather, the way things work.
As a practical matter, how can you tell for yourself...
I live with the hope and faith that in His mercy He will find that I had done enough.
...suddenly Lutheran and Anglican priests could become Roman Catholic priests. And of course, they are expected to take a vow of celibacy.
I'd love to see documentation of that last bit.
Absolutely! It is my honor and duty I believe.
You congratulate him for that post full of anti-Catholic lies?
Mr Rogers:
The charge of re-sacrificing Christ is made over, and over, and over again here, although I don’ think you stated it. The passage from Hebrews you are quoting speaks of a once for all time sacrafice, which the Eucharist, in both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology, fullfills. The celebration of the Eucharist, is the representation, in an unbloody manner, of the once and for all sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The Catholic Church reads the entire Scripture, with Christ as the reference point, thus everything in the Old Testament points to Christ and everything in the NT epistles are understood in reference to Christ.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.shtml
The CCC discusses Typology in section 128. Typology is the Catholic view of reading Sacred Scripture as a unified whole, with the person of Christ as the center. Thus, Catholic theology sees OT persons, events, signs, as prefigurements or types of persons and events that occur in the NT all understood in reference to Christ. So, King David prefigures Christ the King of the new Israel. So I would like to look at Eucharist using the Catholic Biblical principle of Typology
In Genesis 14:18, we read Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine, and being a priest of God Most High, he blessed Abram. Later in Genesis, we read where Abraham was told to sacrifice his son Isaac and he tells his son, that God will provide the Lamb. Of course, God command Abraham to not sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham later sacrifices a Ram (c.f. Gen 22:7-14). So, two themes are already developed here, Melchizedek a priest offering Bread and Wine and the image of the Lamb.
As we move to Exodus, we see the Passover ritual described in Exodus 12: 1-20. Some key themes emerge in this text, the blood of the Lamb is spread on the doors (c.f. Ex. 12: 7) and the Jewish People should partake of the Lamb and eat unleavened bread (c.f. Ex 12: 7-8). Later in the text, we read This day shall be a memorial feast for you, which all your generation shall celebrate with pilgrimage to the Lord, as a perpetual institution (c.f. Exodus 1214) and again, keep the custom of unleavened bread celebrate as a perpetual institution (c.f. Ex 12:17). So some themes emerge hear, that connect back to the passages in Genesis. The blood of the Lamb is put on the door, and the angel of death passes over Gods people. To celebrate and actually participate in this saving action of God, God prescribes a Liturgy/Rite whereby the Jewish People are to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread as a Perpetual Institution, i.e. a celebration that transcends time and space. For the record, the reading from Exodus 12 is read every Holy Thursday in Catholic Churches ,which is when Christ celebrates the Last supper with the Apostles.
As the Jews cross the read sea in Exodus 14 [a prefigurement of Baptism], we see them on the journey to the promise land and they are without food, so what do we read in scripture. We see in Exodus 16:13-15, God providing his people with manna, i.e., bread from heaven as Moses states This is the bread which the Lord has given you to eat (c.f. Ex 16: 15). So again, the sign of God giving his people bread to sustain them on the journey to the promise land is coming into play here again. As we get to Exodus 24: 6-8, we see the covenant ratified in blood as we see Moses taking blood and sprinkling it on the altar [a sign of the presence of God among the people] and then taking the same blood and sprinkling it on the people. So, from this text we have a covenant being made in blood and the mingling of the blood on the altar and people now indicates that God and the people are one, i.e. in communion. Again, for the record, this OT passage is read in Catholic Liturgy on the Feast of Corpus Christi, which was celebrated a few Sundays ago.
Two Psalms have strong Eucharistic imagery, as well as sacramental imagery. For example, in Psalm 104:14-15, we read You raise grass for cattle and plants for our beasts of burden. You bring bread from the earth and wine to gladden our hearts, Oil to make our faces gleam, food to build our strength. In Psalm 110:4 we see the connection to Melchizedek again as we read The Lord has sworn and will not waver: like Melchizedek, you are a priest forever. In addition, the Prophet Malachi (c.f. Mal 1:11) writes For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, a pure offering.
So again, the signs of bread and wine are in the Psalms and the Psalmist makes a prophetic statement about Christ being like Melchizedek, you are a priest forever and later the prophet Malachi indicates that a sacrifice will be offered everywhere.
So, the themes, signs, persons and events in these Old Testament passages, which include bread and wine, priest, sacrifice, Lamb, Passover, unleavened bread, and Melchizedek, through typology, point to the person of Christ and find there fulfillment in his person.
So, staring with the New Testament, John the Baptist identifies Christ as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (c.f. John 1:29). In St. Johns chapter 6, we see Christ giving the bread of life discourse, where he cites manna that God gave in the OT and now indicates that he is the true bread from heaven. In the Gospels we read that Christ Passion took place in the context of Passover (c.f. Mt 26:17; Mk 14:12; Luke 22: 7; John 19:14) and all them make the point to indicate that it was the feast of unleavened bread and St. Mark and St. Luke make the point that this was when the Passover lamb was sacrificed. We also read in the three synoptic Gospels that Christ celebrated the Last supper with his Apostles (c.f. Mk 14: 22-26; Mt 26: 26-30; Luke 22: 14-20), using bread and wine, and stated This is my Body; This is my Blood and do this in memory of him and Christ stated that the bread and cup were the new covenant of his blood (c.f. Luke 22:20). St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 11: 23-29, which interestingly, is written before any of the Gospel accounts gives a strong narrative on the Tradition of the Eucharist as he writes that Christians are to celebrate the Eucharist and indicates that it is a covenant in Christ blood and each time you celebrate the Eucharist, you proclaim the death of the Lord. St. Paul also clearly states that partaking of the Eucharist must be done worthily and a person should examine himself/herself before receiving the Eucharist (c.f. 1 Cor 11:27-28).
In St. Lukes Gospel, we see the post resurrection account of the road to Emmaus (c.f. Luke 24: 13-35) Christ appearing to two of his Apostles (who are not named) and they do not recognize him until Christ celebrates the Eucharist as we read And it happened that while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him .and the two recounted how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread (c.f. Luke 24:30-35). St. Luke, in Acts of the Apostles, gives us an account of Church life as he writes They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. (c.f. Acts 2:42). We see the importance of gathering to break bread again in Acts 20:7 where we read On the first day of the week, when we gathered to break bread and Paul again breaks bread before he leaves (c.f. Acts 20:11).
So, taken collectively, the Catholic Church sees the Eucharist as the ritual, sacramental action of thanksgiving to God which constitutes the principal Christian liturgical celebration of communion in the paschal mystery of Christ and the celebration of the Eucharist is at the heart of the Churchs life (Catechism paragraph 2177). The Eucharist then fulfills all of the Old Testament signs and events in the person and actions of Christ, and thus it is the celebration commanded by Christ to make present the sacrifice of Christ throughout the ages until Christ comes again. Christ entrusted this memorial of his body and blood to his spouse, the Church and thus it is an action of both Christ and His Church and it again, re-presents [makes present] the sacrifice of the cross and an because it is a memorial, it applies its fruits. The sacrifice of Christ and the Eucharist are one in the same and as Christ once offered himself in a bloody manner on the Cross, the Eucharist as a sacrifice and an offering of bread and wine is the same offering in an unbloody manner.
See Catechism 1579 and Catechism 1599.
In fact, it is also explicitly stated when Holy Orders are conferred:
You ought anxiously to consider again and again what sort of a burden this is which you are taking upon you of your own accord. Up to this you are free. You may still, if you choose, turn to the aims and desires of the world (licet vobis pro artitrio ad caecularia vota transire). But if you receive this order (of the subdiaconate) it will no longer be lawful to turn back from your purpose. You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.
Celibacy is what a priest is expected to practice, married or not.
I do not point this out to discredit Roman Catholicism as a "false Christianity" or to denigrate faith! On the contrary, I believe that only by acknowledging the failures and shortcomings of our own institutions will we fully understand the power and infallibility of the Word of God.
ANY organization headed by man - even if set up by God - will fail; one needs to look no further than the lesson of the golden calf! God Himself appointed Moses and Aaron as the leaders of the tribe of Israel, and God Himself dictated how to worship Him. Yet even Aaron failed - even while Moses was on Mount Sinai meeting face-to-face with God!
NO institution is infallible or pure; our only trust is in the Lord. Rules, laws, disciplines, catechisms of man will not save us. ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God! Only by believing on Jesus shall we avoid eternal death.
My church, my pastor, myself - we are all fallen, we all fail. The only way to correct is with daily prayer and meditation on the Word of God. That is the only thing we have that Jesus has claimed as infallible and inerrant. Recognizing the shortcomings of our own churches will drive us back to the Word, where we are supposed to be.
Where's your documentation of this:
Celibacy is what a priest is expected to practice, married or not.
Furthermore, celibacy is and remains a voluntary vow.
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