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No Salvation Outside the Church
Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner



Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is "no salvation outside the Church"? Doesn’t this contradict Scripture? God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.

In correcting Fr. Feeney in 1949, the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a document entitled Suprema Haec Sacra, which stated that "extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is "an infallible statement." But, it added, "this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church itself understands it."

Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings.

Work Out Your Salvation

There are two distinct dimensions of Jesus Christ’s redemption. Objective redemption is what Jesus Christ has accomplished once for all in his life, death, resurrection, and ascension: the redemption of the whole universe. Yet the benefits of that redemption have to be applied unceasingly to Christ’s members throughout their lives. This is subjective redemption. If the benefits of Christ’s redemption are not applied to individuals, they have no share in his objective redemption. Redemption in an individual is an ongoing process. "Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling; for God is at work in you" (Phil. 2:12–13).

How does Jesus Christ work out his redemption in individuals? Through his mystical body. When I was a Protestant, I (like Protestants in general) believed that the phrase "mystical body of Christ" was essentially a metaphor. For Catholics, the phrase is literal truth.

Here’s why: To fulfill his Messianic mission, Jesus Christ took on a human body from his Mother. He lived a natural life in that body. He redeemed the world through that body and no other means. Since his Ascension and until the end of history, Jesus lives on earth in his supernatural body, the body of his members, his mystical body. Having used his physical body to redeem the world, Christ now uses his mystical body to dispense "the divine fruits of the Redemption" (Mystici Corporis 31).

The Church: His Body

What is this mystical body? The true Church of Jesus Christ, not some invisible reality composed of true believers, as the Reformers insisted. In the first public proclamation of the gospel by Peter at Pentecost, he did not invite his listeners to simply align themselves spiritually with other true believers. He summoned them into a society, the Church, which Christ had established. Only by answering that call could they be rescued from the "crooked generation" (Acts 2:40) to which they belonged and be saved.

Paul, at the time of his conversion, had never seen Jesus. Yet recall how Jesus identified himself with his Church when he spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus: "Why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, emphasis added) and "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting" (Acts 9:5). Years later, writing to Timothy, Paul ruefully admitted that he had persecuted Jesus by persecuting his Church. He expressed gratitude for Christ appointing him an apostle, "though I formerly b.asphemed and persecuted and insulted him" (1 Tim. 1:13).

The Second Vatican Council says that the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church and the mystical body of Christ "form one complex reality that comes together from a human and a divine element" (Lumen Gentium 8). The Church is "the fullness of him [Christ] who fills all in all" (Eph. 1:23). Now that Jesus has accomplished objective redemption, the "plan of mystery hidden for ages in God" is "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Eph. 3:9–10).

According to John Paul II, in order to properly understand the Church’s teaching about its role in Christ’s scheme of salvation, two truths must be held together: "the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity" and "the necessity of the Church for salvation" (Redemptoris Missio 18). John Paul taught us that the Church is "the seed, sign, and instrument" of God’s kingdom and referred several times to Vatican II’s designation of the Catholic Church as the "universal sacrament of salvation":

"The Church is the sacrament of salvation for all humankind, and her activity is not limited only to those who accept her message" (RM 20).

"Christ won the Church for himself at the price of his own blood and made the Church his co-worker in the salvation of the world. . . . He carries out his mission through her" (RM 9).

In an address to the plenary assembly of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (January 28, 2000), John Paul stated, "The Lord Jesus . . . established his Church as a saving reality: as his body, through which he himself accomplishes salvation in history." He then quoted Vatican II’s teaching that the Church is necessary for salvation.

In 2000 the CDF issued Dominus Iesus, a response to widespread attempts to dilute the Church’s teaching about our Lord and about itself. The English subtitle is itself significant: "On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." It simply means that Jesus Christ and his Church are indivisible. He is universal Savior who always works through his Church:

The only Savior . . . constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: He himself is in the Church and the Church is in him. . . . Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord (DI 18).

Indeed, Christ and the Church "constitute a single ‘whole Christ’" (DI 16). In Christ, God has made known his will that "the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity" (DI 22). The Catholic Church, therefore, "has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being" (DI 20).

The key elements of revelation that together undergird extra ecclesiam, nulla salus are these: (1) Jesus Christ is the universal Savior. (2) He has constituted his Church as his mystical body on earth through which he dispenses salvation to the world. (3) He always works through it—though in countless instances outside its visible boundaries. Recall John Paul’s words about the Church quoted above: "Her activity is not limited only to those who accept its message."

Not of this Fold

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?

Jesus told his followers, "I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:15–17). The word translated as "tend" (poimaine) means "to direct" or "to superintend"—in other words, "to govern." So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.

People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR



Fr. Ray Ryland, a convert and former Episcopal priest, holds a Ph.D. in theology from Marquette University and is a contributing editor to This Rock. He writes from Steubenville, Ohio, where he lives with his wife, Ruth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; church; cult; pope; salvation
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To: WVKayaker

***hypocrite: see markbsnr; Roman CAtholic Church ***

Show me my hypocrisy. Or rescind your statement. In as public a fashion as you have posted.

Do you really want to associate with a Cagle cartoon? Do you have any idea of what disgusting putrefaction the man has produced? I’d do some research before I’d hang my hat on anything that this individual has drawn.

Matthew 28:
16
8 The eleven 9 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17
10 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

I would make a disciple of all men that are on this forum, baptising them not only in form but in Spirit.


2,521 posted on 07/12/2009 2:29:09 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: WVKayaker
Please enlighten us.

Enlighten yourself. Look in a dictionary.

2,522 posted on 07/12/2009 2:30:20 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Titanites; MarkBsnr
Um, maybe I didn't see it, but did anybody ask how the picture could be "pretenders" when it's of the Litany of Supplication at the beginning of the Rite of Ordination of Priests?

Thanks for the Apologetics. We who just read through are learning a lot.

2,523 posted on 07/12/2009 2:30:56 PM PDT by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: Desdemona; Titanites

***Um, maybe I didn’t see it, but did anybody ask how the picture could be “pretenders” when it’s of the Litany of Supplication at the beginning of the Rite of Ordination of Priests?***

If it doesn’t consist of a rock band fronting a slick huckster on a stage, then it is idol worshiping. Those who oppose us don’t do things like kneel or prostrate themselves; they talk about it but they don’t do it. There is no worship per se; they talk about it and wave their hands and sway to and fro like ferns in the wind.

***Thanks for the Apologetics. We who just read through are learning a lot.***

And we appreciate your reading. There is little more that most Catholics need to do than brush up on their Scripture and do not be afraid to take the heretics, apostate, pagans and heathens on. The only Judge is Him. What can they do to us? Call us bad names?


2,524 posted on 07/12/2009 2:39:21 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Titanites

***Enlighten yourself. Look in a dictionary.***

Careful. That be book larnin’. We mustn’t confuse any of the good burghers with facts and such.


2,525 posted on 07/12/2009 2:41:19 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

“Who decides that it is out of context, though? Hint: 2000 years of history...”

No, any reasonably honest man can. It is a skill we practice all the time in reading, listening to political speeches, reading movie reviews, etc.

I don’t need the Pope to help me read a movie review, and I don’t need his help in determining if someone is quoting scripture out of context.


2,526 posted on 07/12/2009 2:57:09 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MarkBsnr

“If Scripture can be taken out of context, then it by itself is insufficient.”

No, no, no! I can tell when scripture is taken out of context, and so can Luther’s milkmaid. So could you, if you would give it a try.


2,527 posted on 07/12/2009 2:58:32 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MarkBsnr

“I cannot figure out why so many Protestants prefer Paul and the OT over Jesus.”

I’ve quoted Jesus in John 3 & John 6 concerning eternal life and the security of the believer. You ignore what Jesus said as well.


2,528 posted on 07/12/2009 3:00:32 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: MarkBsnr
I would make a disciple Roman Catholic of all men that are on this forum, baptising them not only in form but in Spirit.

hypocrites.

Mark 7: 1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2 saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)

5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." - Gospel Truth

Galatians 2: 11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"


2,529 posted on 07/12/2009 3:06:29 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Even stumbling blocks can be used for re-construction - Ernst R. Hauschka)
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To: WVKayaker

I know what you’re saying...

I don’t post for their benefit...Any attempt to convert one of them is futile...

There are however, lurkers who can see the foolishness of their posts...

They cut and paste the canned responses their religion puts out...Doesn’t matter to them how silly you make them look when you correct them with scripture...But maybe God sent someone to this site who is sitting on the fence and needs to know the truth of the scripture...

What may seem to be a waste of time is when you show with the word of God that one of them is completely wrong, they will ignore the subject and later on, or the next day come right back with their same argument...

That’s alright...May be someone new sitting on the sidelines watching...


2,530 posted on 07/12/2009 3:38:23 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
>,i>Try the Gospels and read the read of the NT through their prism. The Word of God is Jesus; I cannot figure out why so many Protestants prefer Paul and the OT over Jesus.

Then you put little stock if any in the work of the Holy Spirit??? You like to avoid the teaching of the Risen Lord Jesus as given to the Apostle Paul??? You have trouble 'clicking' with the teaching of the Apostle assigned to lead the Gentile church???

Jesus, like Peter, was the teacher to mostly Jews...Those are who the Kingdom was brought to...It was revealed to Paul that he would bring the gospel message to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy...

Why would you place the Gospels above Paul's preaching or any part of the scripture for that matter???

2,531 posted on 07/12/2009 3:50:25 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Now, now. Just because some of the folks that oppose us are unacquainted with things like book larnin’ doesn’t mean that their Scriptural understanding is equally dismal.

Now that's exactly what Jesus said...Maybe you're getting on the right track...

2,532 posted on 07/12/2009 3:54:02 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
What may seem to be a waste of time is when ...

The year I was apprehended by God, I joined a couple of friends and handed out Gospel tracts at the county fair. By the end of each night, we saw literally thousands on the ground and in the trash cans.

I was at the fair two years later, when a fellow stopped to talk. I had given him one which he kept. After taking it home, he said he was overcome with grief. He sought a friend and found Christ the next day. The Holy Spirit can move any heart. I know from my own experience.


2,533 posted on 07/12/2009 3:56:11 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Even stumbling blocks can be used for re-construction - Ernst R. Hauschka)
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To: WVKayaker

Amen to that...


2,534 posted on 07/12/2009 4:02:37 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Jesus, like Peter, was the teacher to mostly Jews.

Actually.....Peter was instructed to evangelize the entire House of Israel [Matthew 10:5-6].....of which a very minor portion were Jews. Paul was given the authority over both Gentile and Israelite (which included Jews) [Acts 9:15].

In his own book, [I Peter 1:1-2] he is writing to Israelites of the dispersion from 721 B.C. (those with a foreknowledge of God) and the Greek: 3927. parepidemos (par-ep-id'-ay-mos) 1290. diaspora (dee-as-por-ah') identifies them as aliens of the dispersion living in foreign countries. These folks were not Gentiles....and they were not Jews. They were descendants of Israelites from the Northern Kingdom taken captive by Assyria [II Kings 17:6]. The Jews were left behind [II Kings 17:18]. They suffered their own captivity 125 years later to Babylon [II Kings 25]. They came back and it is recorded of their return in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. The Israelites never returned and Amos said they would be scattered throughout the world [Amos 9:9]. These folks were to whom the twelve were sent.

2,535 posted on 07/12/2009 4:15:29 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: MarkBsnr
"Wild statements?"
 
 
 
Greek: Γαληνός, Latin: Claudius Galenus of Pergamum (129 – 200 AD), better known in English as Galen, was an ancient Greek physician. Galen's views dominated European medicine for over a thousand years.

http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/8163/Galen.html#ixzz0L5bIHSwB&D
 
 
 
 
 
Galen was the Authority concerning medicinal practice for a millenium. The door to innovation was slammed shut by the "Church"  and innovations were forbidden. 
 
Was Galileo excommunicated?    Here go play.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

2,536 posted on 07/12/2009 4:16:24 PM PDT by Radix (Obama represents CHAINS for posterity.)
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To: Diego1618
Actually.....Peter was instructed to evangelize the entire House of Israel [Matthew 10:5-6].....of which a very minor portion were Jews. Paul was given the authority over both Gentile and Israelite (which included Jews) [Acts 9:15].

Well I don't disagree...I just wasn't being a stickler for the details...Paul appears to narrow it down to Jews and Gentiles...Circumcision and un-circumcision...

2,537 posted on 07/12/2009 5:25:55 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: WVKayaker

Do you have any other pictures of that beautiful basilica you can post instead of just the same one all the time. It’s really a beautiful place and you should show it all off.


2,538 posted on 07/12/2009 5:35:15 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Iscool
I don’t post for their benefit

I've noticed that. It's not been of much benefit for me. So, for the benefit of the lurkers, what did the eunuch and the deacon Philip do after the chariot came to a stand still?

2,539 posted on 07/12/2009 5:38:08 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Iscool
Jesus never told us to build anything, and gild it for His worship. Instead, he spoke of wealth as a detriment to salvation. He tore down the veil in the Temple, and made Himself accessible as our only High Priest. His church is in our hearts.

Jesus warned against idols, and idolatry. He told us that God is a Spirit. WE are created in His likeness. Jesus tells us we must "worship Him in Spirit, and in truth"! But, man is prone to take the easy way out of things, and their group membership, and a warm place on a pew counts as enough to them...

Matthew 6: 19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

The Pope needs an army to protect him, and their wealth...


Golden statue of Hercules, a Greek mythic, part of the riches stored in the Vatican.

Matthew 23: 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.

2,540 posted on 07/12/2009 6:04:20 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Even stumbling blocks can be used for re-construction - Ernst R. Hauschka)
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