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To: bdeaner
Exactly right. If someone is praying TO Mary or the Saints, rather than simply honoring them and/or asking for their intercession, they are in heresy and should be gently corrected.

Note I married into a LIBERAL Catholic family..... Now could you please explain to me how to invoke Mary for intercession is NOT one and the same as praying TO Mary for whatever?

By liberal I mean it this way.... they vote democrat and democrat ideology represents what they believe their priest and their Church teaches/stands for and 'Republicans' are for the rich and do not share the wealth.

9 posted on 06/21/2009 12:01:16 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Just mythoughts

We don’t pray “to” Mary as you have been wrongly instructed. Rather we “ask” for her intercession. There’s a big difference there.


13 posted on 06/21/2009 12:29:25 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Just mythoughts

Contemplate the meaning of the word pray. Consider its use over time in English. You will find similar concepts in the older languages.

Consider the King James language ( or any secular / legal language of the time ). “I pray thee” is a common phrase wherein pray is understood by all to be “ask”. Said between humans one to another. Likewise said between humans and God.

Spend some more time studying prayer and you see Moses being asked to pray to God for the people, to interecede for them. This you see happening all along through scripture, someone praying for another either as an individual or praying for a group of people. Asking one to intercede for another in scripture. Indeed in all Christian circles its common to take prayer requests and to pray for each other. We ask each other to pray for us.

None of this means we cannot also pray directly to Jesus, the Trinity, etc. That is also true. And we should and do. But just like it is not a violation of the notion of “one intercessor” to ask our cousin to pray for us in our trials it likewise is still not a problem to ask a human (even if only spirit) to pray for us after they are beyond this life. Its only wrong if we think the cousin either is a God or the one beyond is a God.

Consider that in the language of Church change is not so fast as in the language of the people.

In the present life if I ask you to pray for me, or if I use older english and say “I pray thee Justmythoughts to pray the Father and the Son to send healing for my gout” no protestant would raise the slightest eyebrow. I know and everyone hearing me knows you are not God and I do not think of you as God.

At the same time there have been many people on earth who have decided they are God and started a following. If I were a dupe and were to pray to them, or to ask of them anything, as a God, I would commit heresy.

And to this point protestants would not have any dispute with this.

But after the soul has gone into heaven, and is before God, closer to God than we ourselves are, it continues to praise the Lord. It can likewise continue to pray, as prayer is to talk with God. Who thinks in heaven our soul does not talk with God ?

Just as on earth the distinction between if I think the departed is God or another human matters so to it matters on how I treat those who have gone ahead. And the nuance and ambiguity of language persists.

Just as I say to the Lord of the Manor “I pray thee dear sir grant leave of my son that he may tend our fields” I do not think he is “The Lord of Lords” and I do not pray to him as God, so it is when I ask a saint something.

To make it even more apparent. I speak to the Lord of the Manor and quote a passage of scripture. “My Lord, I pray thee to pray the Father for the deliverance of our land from the invader.”

I call him Lord but he is not the Lord, I pray him to pray the Father but I do not think he is god. In fact if I said “I ask thee to ask the Father” the meaning would be the same and the same questions would persist.

So you do pray to Mary. You pray to her to ask God on your behalf, as you ask your sister on earth to pray on your behalf when you face a trial.

Consider the Hail Mary all but the last two lines are scriptural. The last two lines say “pray for us sinners now,and at the hour of death.” Right there you see you are asking Mary to pray for you. Like on your deathbed you would ask a close friend to pray for you.

I hope this helps in some small way.

Have a great day.


28 posted on 06/21/2009 3:14:57 PM PDT by lucias_clay (Its times like this I'm glad I'm a whig.)
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