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To: vladimir998
Regarding "empty suit" he was selected for his first position solely because HIS FAMILY simply needed someone in a position to control the flow of money from the bishopric into their pockets, and his older brother had turned down the job to join a religious order.

That's a job an "empty suit" could handle. His promotion to bishop was of the same order.

His brilliance became known LATER ON.

Now, regarding missionaries, irrespective of where the Jesuits were headquartered, their access to French lands and concessions required approval by the French government - and if I recall correctly that came about at the conclusion of the Thirty Years War ~ which took papal powers in such matters and assigned them to the secular states. Richilieu appears to be the guy to credit with all the negotiations that led to the Treaty of Westphalia although he died right before the Congress.

Prior to that Treaty some of the more powerful nation states (e.g. France and Spain) regularly told Popes to take a hike and dictated from their own capitals where missionaries of which orders were allowed. England, of course, took an even more devious course, and the Swedes didn't care.

BTW, all the top commanders and principals in the Thirty Years War were fairly close relatives ~ like a small town full of feuding clans.

56 posted on 06/19/2009 6:55:37 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

You wrote:

“Regarding “empty suit” he was selected for his first position solely because HIS FAMILY simply needed someone in a position to control the flow of money from the bishopric into their pockets, and his older brother had turned down the job to join a religious order.”

Great, you can read Wikipedia. And what you just wrote is irrelevant. He is not known for his first position. He is known for his diplomatic mastery over much of European affairs.

“That’s a job an “empty suit” could handle. His promotion to bishop was of the same order.”

Again, irrelevant.

“His brilliance became known LATER ON.”

I never said otherwise. You, however, did. If he possessed brilliance in his position, then he was not an empty suit.

“Now, regarding missionaries, irrespective of where the Jesuits were headquartered, their access to French lands and concessions required approval by the French government - and if I recall correctly that came about at the conclusion of the Thirty Years War ~ which took papal powers in such matters and assigned them to the secular states.”

Again, irrelevant. Your claims were the following:

1) “...Richelieu was promoted most often because so many powerful figures around him thought of him as a useful idiot, an empty suit...”

2) “One article says he granted the Jesuits a monopoly on the fur trade ~ which suggests he either hated the Recollects, but hated the Jesuits more (getting them cooked on tribal campfires throughout the Ohio Country)...”

3) “...or he wanted to get them out of the country.”

4) “After Richilieu it was amazing that the Jesuits still existed.”

And apparently those claims are false.

“Richilieu appears to be the guy to credit with all the negotiations that led to the Treaty of Westphalia although he died right before the Congress.”

Wow, what an empty suit, huh? That was only one of the most important treaties in history. Gee, he was clearly a moron.

“Prior to that Treaty some of the more powerful nation states (e.g. France and Spain) regularly told Popes to take a hike and dictated from their own capitals where missionaries of which orders were allowed. England, of course, took an even more devious course, and the Swedes didn’t care.”

All irrelevant to what we’re discussing.

“BTW, all the top commanders and principals in the Thirty Years War were fairly close relatives ~ like a small town full of feuding clans.”

No. Von Tilly and Wallenstein were not close relatives, for instance. Were they related at all? I doubt it.


68 posted on 06/19/2009 7:32:08 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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