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Liberty's champion: On his 500th birthday, two cheers for John Calvin
WORLD Magazine ^ | July 04, 2009 | Marvin Olasky

Posted on 06/19/2009 7:09:41 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

For the non-Calvinists or anti-Calvinists among us who may worry that this issue of WORLD has several articles about John Calvin, be not afraid: It happens only once every 500 years. July 10 brings the 500th anniversary of John Calvin's birth—and the great theologian, even with his warts, deserves a better press than he has typically received in recent decades.

Calvin was a fallen sinner, as all of us are, but was he especially mean-spirited? He taught that God created the world out of love and loved the world so much that Christ came down from the glorious kingdom of heaven and plunged into this world's muck. Calvin saw God as a generous giver and His mercy as an abundant resource. Jehovah's Witnesses would later insist that heaven has room for only 144,000, but Calvin understood that God's grace is infinite.

Did Calvin emphasize in-group harshness toward the poor and the alien? No: He wrote, "We cannot but behold our own face as it were in a glass in the person that is poor and despised . . . though he were the furthest stranger in the world. Let a Moor or a barbarian come among us, and yet inasmuch as he is a man, he brings with him a looking glass wherein we may see that he is our brother and neighbor." Everyone is created in God's image and worthy of respect.

Did Calvin want us to abstain from all material pleasures? He wrote that God "meant not only to provide for necessity but also for delight and good cheer. . . . Has the Lord clothed the flowers with the great beauty that greets our eyes, the sweetness of smell that is wafted upon our nostrils, and yet will it be unlawful for our eyes to be affected by that beauty, or our sense of smell by the sweetness of that odor?" He opposed any doctrine that "deprives us of the lawful fruit of God's beneficence."

Calvin also opposed doctrines that deprive us of political liberty. His understandings—that God-given laws are superior to those of the state, the king, and any other institution, and that individuals have direct access to the Bible, without dependence on pope or priest—are common now, but compare them to the political and theological theories fashionable before his time. In ancient times, pagan states revered leaders as semi-divine. Those who argued with such bosses were seen as deserving death. In medieval times, the interpretations of church officials often trumped the words of the Bible itself (which few people could read). They identified God's kingdom on earth with a church monopoly, and hanged, burned, or decapitated some with other ideas.

Calvin and other Reformation leaders, though, separated church and state while emphasizing the importance of believers working to lead the state. Calvin contended that, since God reigns everywhere, His followers should be entrepreneurs in every strategic institution, including government, civil society, commerce, media, law, education, the church, and the arts. This emphasis led directly to what has become known as the "Protestant ethic," with its unleashing of individual initiative and its emphasis on hard work in purportedly secular areas. Many kinds of labor are equally worthy, Calvin argued, and those in charge of one activity should not dictate to others.

Calvin's writings also had an implicit anti-statism. Since fundamental law comes from God, obeying the law means obeying God, not necessarily the state. Rebellion against an unlawful state act, led by "lesser magistrates" such as local leaders, is really a justifiable maintenance of true law. One Calvin disciple in 1579 wrote Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos ("Vindication Against Tyrants"), which emphasized the limits of power.

Would freedom ring? The English jurist Blackstone called "the power and jurisdiction of Parliament transcendent and absolute . . . sovereign and uncontrollable." English lawyers joked that "Parliament can do everything except make a woman a man, or a man a woman." (Some of our jurists and legislators are more ambitious.) But generation after generation of Calvinists read Vindiciae and emphasized that government must be under God. According to John Adams, its doctrines greatly influenced Americans of the 1760s and 1770s.

Calvin's birthday comes six days after the Independence Day that owes much to his teaching. Bake a cake and know that Calvin was not against enjoying it.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvin; churchhistory; happybirthday; olasky
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To: Petronski; wmfights
wmfights-"...she redeems sinners..."

Petronski-"There is no such teaching of the Catholic Church."

Ummmm...If someone prays to Mary to ask the Son to help saved them, then isn't she redeeming sinners?

561 posted on 06/22/2009 5:28:42 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Marysecretary; Frumanchu
Many of the heresies you see today about Mary are rather new inventions.

Thanks for the info.

I do agree she certainly deserves our respect. Boy, the way people fight to support these new heresies you would think they were in Scripture.

562 posted on 06/22/2009 5:31:59 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: HarleyD
If someone prays to Mary to ask the Son to help saved them, then isn't she redeeming sinners?

Also, the Sabbatine Privilege first declared by John XXII in 1322 that claims she can take people out of purgatory on Saturdays is another example of this heresy.

563 posted on 06/22/2009 5:36:32 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: MarkBsnr
YIKES!!! You sure post long posts.

I would suggest the Sermon on the Mount was not directed to the multitudes but insteaad was directed to His disciples.

Arguably you will say that "taught them" meant the multitudes. I would say it means the disciples; hence our Lord refering to the multitude with "frustration" and calling them a "stiff neck people".

So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free. ###Jesus wants to free us.

No, what the passage clearly states is that the Son must free you [from sin]. If Jesus WANTS people free, everyone would be free from sin.

Paul says that God will be severe to those who fall away,

No, Paul is saying that the Gentiles cannot presume that they have, and always will have, God's grace since God casted aside the Jews. He's talking to the group collectively, not individually. I think of this as Joshua asking the angel who side are you on, theirs or ours; and the reply was neither but of the Lord.

Paul repeats the lesson that we must persevere but was can fall away.

We must persevere, but it is God who keeps us and helps us to persevere. You are only seeing one side of the coin. It is like saying people needs to get a new heart without understanding that God gives us a new heart. It goes back to Augustine's prayer, "Command what you will and grant what you command."

None of these voices deny free will...

Nonsense. We cannot come to the Son unless the Father draws us. We cannot hear the voice of God until He unstops our ears. He calls His sheep. One can never explain these passages (and many more) without this understanding, that it is God who calls and draws us to Him.

564 posted on 06/22/2009 5:51:10 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: big'ol_freeper

Most of your offensive posts were pulled. Very convenient.


565 posted on 06/22/2009 5:56:53 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Petronski

What was your process for determining that? If a post is pulled there is no way to attribute it to a poster. How did you determine that “dozens” of my posts personally accusing you of being an anti-Catholic bigot were pulled since they are would be gone.

I hate to tell you but in all my time on FR I could count on one hand the number of posts of mine that have been pulled.

Bearing false witness and then lying to cover tracks...hardly becoming of a “Christian”.


566 posted on 06/22/2009 6:03:36 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: HarleyD
I was not going to post today since I'm traveling for work but,I feel the need to answer you post.

I'm sorry but God is not the author of such a dispicable act.

I Agree, and appreciate your sorrow for what happened to me.Thank you

You, thankfully, have been saved by His grace.

I don't know that for sure,dear brother. I hope through humility.

Can the same be said about your molester? In 10,000 years when you are singing with the saints of heaven, where will he be? Christianity is about forgiving ,thus I have forgiven this person and pray for their Salvation.

For all I know,the person who did that to me may have had something worse done to them.Thus, I trust Our Blessed Lord will hear my prayers.

I wish you a blessed evening!

567 posted on 06/22/2009 6:06:00 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Petronski; Marysecretary
ask for her intercession.

Mary is no one's intercessor. You've been sold a lie.

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God...

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." -- Romans 8:26-27,34


"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." -- Hebrews 7:25


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5

THE INTERCESSION OF CHRIST
by Dr. Francis Turretin

568 posted on 06/22/2009 6:08:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: big'ol_freeper
I hate to tell you but in all my time on FR I could count on one hand the number of posts of mine that have been pulled.

ROTFLOL!

569 posted on 06/22/2009 6:08:46 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HarleyD
Christianity is about forgiveness and I have forgiven the person ,Harley
570 posted on 06/22/2009 6:10:40 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: MarkBsnr
we know those to whom the Gospels are abhorrent except when taken in little out of context snippets

Then stop doing that. You can change, Mark. Pray to Jesus Christ, the only intercessor, for His help.

571 posted on 06/22/2009 6:11:19 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I think you meant “hiss”.


572 posted on 06/22/2009 6:11:42 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Mary is no one's intercessor.

False.

You've been sold a lie.

False again.

It's no different than asking for any other Christian's prayers, except that she is the Mother of God.

573 posted on 06/22/2009 6:24:55 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: wmfights
Also, the Sabbatine Privilege first declared by John XXII in 1322 that claims she can take people out of purgatory on Saturdays is another example of this heresy.

Or so you claim.

Christ is powerful enough to reward devotion to His mother in any way He sees fit.

574 posted on 06/22/2009 6:26:06 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Don't you get it, Mark? We try to get the last word by not participating, and instead flinging and running.

Now get back in line, Cath-lik!

575 posted on 06/22/2009 6:27:10 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: HarleyD
If someone prays to Mary to ask the Son to help saved them, then isn't she redeeming sinners?

No, the Son is. That is why Mary asks Him.

576 posted on 06/22/2009 6:29:05 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: wmfights
Boy, the way people fight to support these new heresies you would think they were in Scripture.

But they're not. They're Calvinist.

577 posted on 06/22/2009 6:29:41 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: HarleyD

***YIKES!!! You sure post long posts.***

Well, I try to post the supporting Scripture. I’ve found out that simply posting a link to those who shall not be named usually results in them simply ignoring those verses and toddling on. It’s also a help to the lurkers who might otherwise simply pass on and not read any of the verses at all. I beg your forebearance in this.

***I would suggest the Sermon on the Mount was not directed to the multitudes but insteaad was directed to His disciples.

Mat 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Arguably you will say that “taught them” meant the multitudes. I would say it means the disciples; hence our Lord refering to the multitude with “frustration” and calling them a “stiff neck people”.***

Interesting. That might mean that the Lord allowed the people their own free will, even against His teachings, yes? But we also have many other verses which indicate that Israel has acted in opposition to God’s stated preferences and He is frustrated. This MUST prove free will. Let us see. Numbers 21:
1
1 When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negeb, heard that the Israelites were coming along the way of Atharim, he engaged them in battle and took some of them captive.
2
Israel then made this vow to the LORD: “If you deliver this people into my hand, I will doom their cities.”
3
2 Later, when the LORD heeded Israel’s prayer and delivered up the Canaanites, they doomed them and their cities. Hence that place was named Hormah.
4
From Mount Hor they set out on the Red Sea road, to by-pass the land of Edom. But with their patience worn out by the journey,
5
3 the people complained against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in this desert, where there is no food or water? We are disgusted with this wretched food!”
6
4 In punishment the LORD sent among the people saraph serpents, which bit the people so that many of them died.
7
Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people,
8
5 and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.”
9
6 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.

The OT is full of stories of the Israelites disobeying God. Did God will them to disobey and them punish them? Each and every time? Jesus came to the Jews who rejected Him. It was only as a third plan that the Gentiles were included.

And I must disagree with you on Matthew 5 as being addressed only to the Apostles. Luke 6:
12
3 In those days he departed to the mountain to pray, and he spent the night in prayer 4 to God.
13
When day came, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose Twelve, 5 whom he also named apostles:
14
Simon, whom he named Peter, 6 and his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,
15
Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called a Zealot, 7
16
and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, 8 who became a traitor.
17
9 And he came down with them and stood on a stretch of level ground. A great crowd of his disciples and a large number of the people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon
18
came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; and even those who were tormented by unclean spirits were cured.
19
Everyone in the crowd sought to touch him because power came forth from him and healed them all.
20
10 11 And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
21
Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.
22
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man.
23
Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
24
But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
25
But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep.
26
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.
27
12 “But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29
To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.
30
Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32
For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
33
And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
34
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.
35
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
36
Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful.
37
13 “Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
38
Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you.”
39
And he told them a parable, “Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit?
40
No disciple is superior to the teacher; but when fully trained, every disciple will be like his teacher.
41
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own?
42
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.
43
14 “A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit.
44
For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thornbushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles.
45
A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.
46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
47
15 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
48
That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
49
But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”

Paul on free will:

Galatians 6:
1
1 Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted.
2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. 2
3
For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deluding himself.
4
3 Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else;
5
for each will bear his own load.
6
One who is being instructed in the word should share all good things with his instructor. 4
7
Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows,
8
because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.
9
Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up.
10
So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of the faith. 5

We have the free will to do good or evil; for those who do evil, we must help them to do good and return to the Faith; we must do good to all, and we should not give up. For we can give up, else this is meaningless.

***So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free. ###Jesus wants to free us.

No, what the passage clearly states is that the Son must free you [from sin]. If Jesus WANTS people free, everyone would be free from sin.***

Jesus says that He would save all men. 1 Timothy 2:
1
1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
5
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6
who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony 2 at the proper time.

Ransom for all men. Who wills everyone to be saved. This by itself refutes Calvinistic theology.

***Paul says that God will be severe to those who fall away,

No, Paul is saying that the Gentiles cannot presume that they have, and always will have, God’s grace since God casted aside the Jews. He’s talking to the group collectively, not individually. I think of this as Joshua asking the angel who side are you on, theirs or ours; and the reply was neither but of the Lord.***

Boy, that’s stretching beyond the breaking point. The text is clear; we are instructed to persevere or else we will fall away. For one thing, if we blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, that is unforgiveable. If it is unforgiveable, then that person is lost forever. It is possible to lose one’s salvation.

***You are only seeing one side of the coin. It is like saying people needs to get a new heart without understanding that God gives us a new heart. It goes back to Augustine’s prayer, “Command what you will and grant what you command.”***

We Catholic have brought the doctrine of God’s Grace to all men. We all are offered His Grace. John 3:16. The whole world. And Augustine’s prayer does not constitute a command to God; it also does not encompass all of God’s works.

***None of these voices deny free will...

Nonsense. We cannot come to the Son unless the Father draws us. We cannot hear the voice of God until He unstops our ears. He calls His sheep. One can never explain these passages (and many more) without this understanding, that it is God who calls and draws us to Him.***

We agree that God’s Grace is required. What we disagree on (and what I keep posting verses on) is that God calls ALL men, not some fictional elite. It is then up to those men to accept or deny His Grace. That is what Paul is attempting to do: to encourage all of the new Christians to remain Christian and act in a truly Christian manner. That comprises the bulk of all of his letters.


578 posted on 06/22/2009 6:31:03 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

NEVER quote John 3:16-7 to an anti-Catholic Calvinist without safety precautions.

It’s like throwing water on a witch.


579 posted on 06/22/2009 6:35:32 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: 1010RD; Dr. Eckleburg; stfassisi; HarleyD; Frumanchu; Dutchboy88; suzyjaruki

“The problem you’re encountering is that you bring your own metaphors and preconceived notions into your study of the scriptures.....As you have no clue to what it means you then pounce on it as reinforcing and consistent with your predetermined ideas.”

But I have no problem in understanding that what the writer is dealing with in (Prov. 20:24), “Man’s goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?” is the sovereignty of God. That’s why the verse was included with others dealing with God’s sovereignty. I did notice that you did not give your interpretation of the verse.

“What does Christ have to say?”

Those verses in “Matthew 18:1-4” have nothing to do with the sovereignty of God nor with innocency or sinlessness. They have to do with humble serving. Parallel scriptures are found in Mark 9:33-37 and Luke 9:46-48.

Jesus had previously singled out Peter, James, and John, as in Matthew 17:1, for special honor. The disciples were wondering what would the role of each of the disciples be? Undoubtedly, the disciples had been unduly concerned about their status in the coming kingdom. It is clear that they were still anticipating an earthly kingdom, in which Jesus would be the King and they would be His privileged servants.
As they gathered at the home which Jesus had established in Capernaum (Mt 17:24; Mk 9:33) they were arguing among themselves as to “who should be the greatest” in the Kingdom. Luke 9:46-50. (Mt 18:1). According to Mark 9:33, Jesus had raised the question, “What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?” Apparently, they did not answer immediately, for Mark 9:34 states, “But they held their peace. Breaking the awkward silence, apparently one of the disciples asked the question recorded in Matthew 18:1.

In answer to their question, Jesus called a little child to Him. When the disciples observed the little child standing in their midst, Jesus then took the child in His arms (Mk 9:36-37) and said to the disciples, “Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.” Luke reports the incident this way, (Luke 9:48), “Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. Matthew reports it this way, “Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 18:3-4).

Jesus, in effect, was saying that they were asking the wrong question. They should have been asking, how can I best serve the King? rather than, How can I best serve myself? The child in the arms of Jesus was a graphic illustration of loving trust, immediate obedience in coming to the arms of Christ, and in seeking only the position of being loved. True greatness involved taking an attitude of unpretentious humility instead of seeking a position of power. Jesus used the occasion, however, to speak of the importance of human personality, as illustrated in the child who has no position or wealth and no power. Instead of seeking greatness in the kingdom, the disciples should be seeking how they can serve ordinary human beings, such as this child. Jesus stated that if they received a child in His name, it signified that they were in a proper relationship of faith in Christ Himself.

These teachings of Jesus were in sharp contrast to that which was popular in the heathen world, where children were often used as human sacrifices and often suffered cruelty and neglect. The disciples, accordingly, were warned not to offend a child. It would be better to be drowned in the deep sea with a millstone around one’s neck than to offend a little one. It would be better to have a hand or foot cut off or an eye plucked out than to offend one of these, especially in spiritual things.


580 posted on 06/22/2009 6:35:57 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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