Posted on 06/19/2009 7:09:41 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
For the non-Calvinists or anti-Calvinists among us who may worry that this issue of WORLD has several articles about John Calvin, be not afraid: It happens only once every 500 years. July 10 brings the 500th anniversary of John Calvin's birth—and the great theologian, even with his warts, deserves a better press than he has typically received in recent decades.
Calvin was a fallen sinner, as all of us are, but was he especially mean-spirited? He taught that God created the world out of love and loved the world so much that Christ came down from the glorious kingdom of heaven and plunged into this world's muck. Calvin saw God as a generous giver and His mercy as an abundant resource. Jehovah's Witnesses would later insist that heaven has room for only 144,000, but Calvin understood that God's grace is infinite.
Did Calvin emphasize in-group harshness toward the poor and the alien? No: He wrote, "We cannot but behold our own face as it were in a glass in the person that is poor and despised . . . though he were the furthest stranger in the world. Let a Moor or a barbarian come among us, and yet inasmuch as he is a man, he brings with him a looking glass wherein we may see that he is our brother and neighbor." Everyone is created in God's image and worthy of respect.
Did Calvin want us to abstain from all material pleasures? He wrote that God "meant not only to provide for necessity but also for delight and good cheer. . . . Has the Lord clothed the flowers with the great beauty that greets our eyes, the sweetness of smell that is wafted upon our nostrils, and yet will it be unlawful for our eyes to be affected by that beauty, or our sense of smell by the sweetness of that odor?" He opposed any doctrine that "deprives us of the lawful fruit of God's beneficence."
Calvin also opposed doctrines that deprive us of political liberty. His understandings—that God-given laws are superior to those of the state, the king, and any other institution, and that individuals have direct access to the Bible, without dependence on pope or priest—are common now, but compare them to the political and theological theories fashionable before his time. In ancient times, pagan states revered leaders as semi-divine. Those who argued with such bosses were seen as deserving death. In medieval times, the interpretations of church officials often trumped the words of the Bible itself (which few people could read). They identified God's kingdom on earth with a church monopoly, and hanged, burned, or decapitated some with other ideas.
Calvin and other Reformation leaders, though, separated church and state while emphasizing the importance of believers working to lead the state. Calvin contended that, since God reigns everywhere, His followers should be entrepreneurs in every strategic institution, including government, civil society, commerce, media, law, education, the church, and the arts. This emphasis led directly to what has become known as the "Protestant ethic," with its unleashing of individual initiative and its emphasis on hard work in purportedly secular areas. Many kinds of labor are equally worthy, Calvin argued, and those in charge of one activity should not dictate to others.
Calvin's writings also had an implicit anti-statism. Since fundamental law comes from God, obeying the law means obeying God, not necessarily the state. Rebellion against an unlawful state act, led by "lesser magistrates" such as local leaders, is really a justifiable maintenance of true law. One Calvin disciple in 1579 wrote Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos ("Vindication Against Tyrants"), which emphasized the limits of power.
Would freedom ring? The English jurist Blackstone called "the power and jurisdiction of Parliament transcendent and absolute . . . sovereign and uncontrollable." English lawyers joked that "Parliament can do everything except make a woman a man, or a man a woman." (Some of our jurists and legislators are more ambitious.) But generation after generation of Calvinists read Vindiciae and emphasized that government must be under God. According to John Adams, its doctrines greatly influenced Americans of the 1760s and 1770s.
Calvin's birthday comes six days after the Independence Day that owes much to his teaching. Bake a cake and know that Calvin was not against enjoying it.
It could be clearer if it were accurate, complete. Not half-n-half.
Your post says otherwise.
I don’t say ALL Catholics worship here. It’s clear some here certainly do.
That’s your opinion Pet.
All or virtually all Catholics say the Hail Mary and ask for her intercession. This is not worship.
It’s obvious Mare.
Turnabout is fair play.
Remember how humble they really are due to their shortcomings. LOL. Like the rest of us don’t know? We ALL fall short of the glory of God.
Interesting to see you get a chuckle out of one of the most vicious anti-Catholic screeds this forum has ever seen.
***When your theology is based upon anti Christian hate, what else do you have to post?
Astounding how blatant is the hypocrisy in this statement. How are we to understand it as anything other than the bottomless pool of anti-Calvinist hatred...unless the rules apply differently in your case? Let me guess...your guy has the keys, so whatever you say against your “enemies” is justifiable?***
Thank you for the frank admission that Calvinism is not Christianity. But at any rate, I don’t hate Calvinists. Matthew 5:
43
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same?
and we also have Luke 6:
25
But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep.
26
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.
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12 “But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29
To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.
30
Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32
For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
33
And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
34
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit (is) that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount.
35
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
I don’t hate Calvinists, not by a long shot. They amuse and sometimes edify. I owe you guys a debt; you have spurred me to find out more about Christianity on my own faster than I was doing within my religious education. Coming to FR has also put me in touch with good religious and theological teachers both Latin and Orthodox. Not hate. I must thank you. You have inadvertently done good things for me. As your own WCF says in Chapter 10:
4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.
***The bottomless pool of anti-Catholic hatred on display on these threads never ceases to amaze me.
Wow. A Calvinist starts a thread in honor of Calvin’s 500th birthday, within just a few posts people swarm in from all directions to attack Calvin, you start decrying the “evil, sadistic little pocket deity of Jean Cauvin,” Mark calls us “stiff necked sinners who refuse to acknowledge their own pride and sins” and states that “Reformed theology is...incompatible with the Christian God,” then claims Calvinists “[identify] themselves as the elite and therefore they are better than anyone else.”***
You’re welcome. I notice that the thread is wide open and not caucus.
*** So forgive me if I LAUGH OUT LOUD at your whining about the “bottomless pool of anti-Catholic hatred,” especially after complaining because we don’t get the name of your sacred institution exactly the way you want it.***
Not my sacred institution; it is the Church created by Jesus Christ and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Ummm, this is all in the Bible; I can help you look in case you’ve missed it.
***I happen to have many friends who are Catholics and whose salvation I do not doubt.***
Why even bother with the Judgement? We can rewrite Scripture with Frumanchu Judging all.
***So, are you going to answer my question, or are you only interested in perpetuating petty little arguments of no real consequence?***
In amongst the wailing and the gnashing of teeth, I appear to have lost the pertinent question. Can you please repeat it?
***We have a reasonable confidence in our salvation by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross if we have been given faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord, King and Savior.***
Explain ‘reasonable confidence’. If you mean belief, then I will concur with you and join you in that belief for myself. If you mean knowledge, then I will once again point to Scripture in which it repeats over and over again ‘belief’ and not ‘knowledge’.
***Unlike Roman Catholics, who do not have this confidence, but instead fear that as they walk out the confessional booth and thus sin again, they are once more damned unless and until that new sin in forgiven by a priest.***
This authority was given to Peter alone in Matthew 16:19 and to the Apostles in Matthew 18:18. What is the Reformed interpretation of these passages?
***Christ did not teach this absurdity. Christ taught confidence in HIM and HIS work on the cross.***
Belief. Christ told us to believe in Him.
***”Be not afraid; only believe.” — Mark 5:36***
You have demonstrated in post after post, as well as the general pool of Reformed that you do not adhere to the Nicene Creed - the yardstick by which Christians are measured. Depending on the day, you refute 5 or possibly 6 points of the Creed. How can you call yourself Christian any more than a Mormon can? You do not believe in the Creed of Christianity.
***Paul was confident in Christ and the faith he had been given by God. You miss so much by belittling it.***
Even in a single post you cannot get it the same. Faith is not knowledge. Beside, we do not belittle Paul; we reverence him and his great role in saving the fledgling Church; it is the Reformed that we belittle.
***Harley, God’s revelation to us is that we have free will. I can post enough Scripture that supports that.
I believe there is only one scripture passage that states something about bringing in an offering on your own free will. You won’t find the term “free will” in scripture.***
The Sermons (both Luke and Matthew) are preached to men of free will and free will only. There is no point preaching the parables in Matthew 28 to those who have no free will. The Lord complains that the Israelites would not listen to him: Acts 7:
50
Did not my hand make all these things?’
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“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors.
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Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They put to death those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.
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You received the law as transmitted by angels, but you did not observe it.”
54
When they heard this, they were infuriated, and they ground their teeth at him.
Jesus is expressing frustration at their disobedience. The only disobedient individual is one with a free will. The instructions for us are throughout Scripture.
John 8:
30
Because he spoke this way, many came to believe in him.
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14 15 Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples,
32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33
They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. 16 How can you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34
Jesus answered them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.
35
A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son 17 always remains.
36
So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free.
###Jesus wants to free us.
Romans 11:
22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
###Paul says that God will be severe to those who fall away, but kind to those who either stay or who believe again. This says that salvation is not determined by God; it is rather our actions after being given God’s Grace.
1 Colossians 1:
21
12 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds
22
he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him,
23
provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
###Paul repeats the lesson that we must persevere but was can fall away.
1 John 2:
12 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23
No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
24
Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
###We are instructed to persevere. If we did not have the free will to fall away, there is no point to these verses.
***Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Rom 6:20-22 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Jhn 10:14-16 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Jhn 10:25-27 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:***
None of these voices deny free will; the closest is Paul’s slaves to sin vs. slave to God. I believe that the Greek translation means willing bondservant rather than captive and unwilling slave. Men, with the Grace of God that Jesus gives freely to all, can then make the choice every day, every moment of their lives. That is what the call to repentence is for - every man every moment in the rest of their lives.
***How many do you want? I can’t post all of John and Romans out here. There are those who are the Lord sheep and there are those who aren’t. His sheep hear His voice because the Father draws them. It’s really is very clear text.***
John 10:16 is clear text stating that Jesus differentiates between those already converted to Christianity and those who aren’t. He is going after those who aren’t. That is part of our Commission as a Catholic.
***Yep. That’s usually the end of so many of these types of conversations. They don’t participate. They fling and run.***
Fascinating statement. I thought that you accused me of always trying to get the last word in on another lengthy theological thread in which you resurrected a thread that was lying peacefully dormant.
***Thankfully, though their deeds are dark, we know them by the words they speak.***
And we know those to whom the Gospels are abhorrent except when taken in little out of context snippets and who seek to make St. Paul mean opposed to what he actually wrote.
You are right we should be gracious on his birthday. He did get a great deal correct.
Are the Lutherans also amills?
I agree but you won't find anything like that in Calvin's writings. As far as I can tell he just says what a wonderful person she was (which I would agree with) and that she remained a virgin (which I would disagree with).
Many of the heresies you see today about Mary are rather new inventions.
How?
I am still waiting for you to back up your charges against me. Are you going to document the “dozens of times” that I have personally called you an anti-Catholic bigot or are you going to withdraw the libelous statement?
Bearing false witness is a serious matter.
I'm sorry but God is not the author of such a dispicable act. People do evil to others because people are evil, that is the environment in which all of us live. You, thankfully, have been saved by His grace. Can the same be said about your molester? In 10,000 years when you are singing with the saints of heaven, where will he be?
A wonderful Christian sentiment.
I first drifted over to these threads from news/activism. I really became interested the more I learned. The greatest fun for me is going back to Scripture and seeing if the arguments being made are consistent with Scripture.
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