So true.
Amazing << Hear this. Feel this, and tell me that this isn't music.
Oh, dear...
Posted on 05/27/2009 1:01:05 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
Amen and hooah. Being reformed makes your Christian walk SO much easier!!
Yes, we are commanded to do both.
In Reformed circles, we tend to prioritize truth over relationships (and IMO that's the correct prioritization), and then we willingly (and rapidly) sacrifice relationships whenever we feel doctrinal truths are threatened. Yes, we must contend for the truth. But we should also be willing to reach across the aisle and show meekness and tenderness towards those who we disagree with doctrinally, especially when disagreements are in minor doctrinal things.
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. -- Proverbs 15:1IMO this is a shameful historic trait of Reformed Protestantism that must be resolved. It is somewhat culturally mitigated (some cultures produce thicker-skinned combatants than others), but it doesn't negate the need in general.With patience a ruler may be persuaded, and a soft tongue will break a bone. -- Proverbs 25:15
------
We may be true Christians, really born-again Christians, and yet fail in our love toward other Christians. As a matter of fact, to be completely realistic, it is stronger than this. There will be times (and let us say it with tears), there will be times when we will fail in our love toward each other as Christians. In a fallen world, where there is no such thing as perfection until Jesus comes, we know this will be the case. And, of course, when we fail, we must ask God's forgiveness. But, Jesus is not here saying that our failure to love all Christians proves that we are not Christians.Let each of us see this individually for ourselves. If I fail in my love toward Christians, it does not prove I am not a Christian. What Jesus is saying, however, is that, if I do not have the love I should have toward all other Christians, the world has the right to make the judgment that I am not a Christian.
This distinction is imperative. If we fail in our love toward all Christians, we must not tear our heart out as though it were proof that we are lost. No one except Christ himself has ever lived and not failed. If success in love toward our brothers in Christ were to be the standard of whether or not a man is a Christian, then there would be no Christians, because all men have failed. But Jesus gives the world a piece of litmus paper, a reasonable thermometer: There is a mark which, if the world does not see, allows them to conclude, "This man is not a Christian." Of course, the world may be making a wrong judgment because, if the man is truly a Christian, as far as the reality goes, they made a mistake.
It is true that a non-Christian often hides behind what he sees in Christians and then screams, "Hypocrites!" when in reality he is a sinner who will not face the claims of Christ. But that is not what Jesus is talking about here. Here Jesus is talking about our responsibility as individuals and as groups to so love all other true Christians that the world will have no valid reason for saying that we are not Christians....
[snip]
....Of course as Christians we must not minimize the need to give honest answers to honest questions. We should have an intellectual apologetic. The Bible commands it and Christ and Paul exemplify it. In the synagogue, in the marketplace, in homes and in almost every conceivable kind of situation, Jesus and Paul discussed Christianity. It is likewise the Christian's task to be able to give an honest answer to an honest question and then to give it.
Yet, without true Christians loving one another, Christ says the world cannot be expected to listen, even when we give proper answers. Let us be careful, indeed, to spend a lifetime studying to give honest answers. For years the orthodox, evangelical church has done this very poorly. So it is well to spend time learning to answer the questions of men who are about us. But after we have done our best to communicate to a lost world, still we must never forget that the final apologetic which Jesus gives is the observable love of true Christians for true Christians.
-- From part 2 and part 3 of Francis Schaeffer's The Mark Of The Christian.
I agree, and that's why I currently attend a PCA church. Good doctrine, lousy worship...but I can worship outside of church easier than I can get good doctrine.
we willingly (and rapidly) sacrifice relationships whenever we feel doctrinal truths are threatened.
Interesting choice of words. To whom or what, exactly, are we 'sacrificing' those relationships? I would suggest that all to often, it's to our own sense of self-importance and self-righteousness. That's not to say that relationships must never be severed -- sometimes they must. As Jefferson said, though, we should never destroy them for 'light and transient causes.'
What Jesus is saying, however, is that, if I do not have the love I should have toward all other Christians, the world has the right to make the judgment that I am not a Christian.
Schaeffer is, as usual, right on the mark. I would only slightly modify it thusly: if we don't have the love we should toward virtually all or most other Christians, the world should rightly judge that we are not Christians. It's the old "Us four and no more" syndrome.
LOL. Okay, there is the good Dr. praying with this Pentecostal. The Pentecostal says, “God, thanks for the sunshine. And thank you for having absolutely no control over the human heart. After all, how could we be responsible if you dabbled inside of us. Amen.”
Dr. E looks up and says, “Son, thanks for that expression of gratefulness for God’s faithfulness about the sunshine. Sit down for the next two weeks while I teach you some really good information about the message of the Scriptures. A long time ago there was this fellow named John Calvin...”
I love it. Keep it up, Doc.
So true.
Amazing << Hear this. Feel this, and tell me that this isn't music.
Oh, dear...
“But Doc, I gotta ask - aren’t we commanded to worship in both spirit AND truth?”
“IMO this is a shameful historic trait of Reformed Protestantism that must be resolved”
That’s why being a Baptist Calvinist is just so much more satisfying. We do both. If you guys want, I can e-mail you a membership card and you don’t even have to trade in your sprinkle for a full body wash!
No thanks LOL... we’re moving soon and will likely be joining an EPC church. I hear they occasionally jump a pew or two.
She keeps saying I should pray more (or longer), but she can't tell me why.
Ah, but ours does double-duty, since it acts as a deodorant as well :P
Dude, your profile is seriously red.
I dig it.
Who needs a shower when you have a pool?
“Ah, but ours does double-duty, since it acts as a deodorant as well :P”
You got me there but, but, we still have that “thorn in the flesh”, Ethyl who reminds us of the age of the Reformation and the freedom we have as Baptists when she painfully, ponderously, plays (a little alliteration there for effect) those anthems.
“for effect”
Affect - effect, affect - effect, anyway, you know what I mean.
My love extends to praying for their eventual understanding of all of God's attributes and sovereignty, not just His benevolence.
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." -- 1 John 4:6
As Jefferson said, though, we should never destroy them for 'light and transient causes.'
Very true. So I guess it comes down to the definition of "light" and "transient." Because, as Jefferson alludes, there are errors which should be and will be destroyed.
They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper. Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace. Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever." -- Isaiah 59:4-21 "None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Sorry for the long post. I was going to excerpt from Isaiah but couldn't cut even a line. Splendid writing, isn't it? Sounds like much of Congress.
I’m OK with emotion so long as its not the fuel of faith, when that’s case the fire burs for too short a time. Also I believe Christians can suffer depression and if at that point your faith is based on emotion you are in real trouble.
LOL. Two weeks? Fast learners, those Pentecostals. It took me a lot longer than that. 8~)
Amen to that. I have not seen much like that on FR lately. But then I have been very busy over the last several months so I might have missed some.
I know you like Schaeffer and I do, too, but you have to admit there was a somewhat passive side to him. I believe, ultimately, he was not as thorough-going as he could have been. Here's a fascinating letter written to Schaeffer from Cornelius Van Til.
"...to the God who is there..."
This letter reminds me of Whitefield's letter to Wesley -- unvarnished, uncompromising, gentle, and ever aware of the import of its subject.
What's "lousy" about the worship? I'd give anything to have a PCA church in our vicinity. The closest one is 60 miles away.
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