If Peter, James, Paul and the other Apostles, who were Jews knew what happened, testified to it, and announced to the world that Jesus had risen from the dead and was at the right hand of the Father in Heaven — and many other Jews in Jerusalem who knew those things, too, joined them in their belief and faith in Jesus as the Messiah of Israel — then I’ll go along with their testimony.
I don’t see their testimony refuted by those who were there with the Apostles, living in the same place at the same time. It’s clear that no one at that time could refute that testimony and that’s why the Christian Church grew dramatically at that time.
And there has been nothing to refute it in the intervening time. There have been doubters and naysayers who may refuse to believe it, but that’s their choice to refuse to believe it.
However, no one could present any evidence at that time, when it was directly available to them (i.e., *actually being there* and getting witnesses to testify to the contrary of those facts). And so, if no one could do it at that time when everyone was alive and able to testify — certainly no one in the 21st Century is going to be able to testify convincingly... LOL...
You’ll notice that they have over 500 witnesses to Jesus being alive and taken up into Heaven...
—
1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
—
Acts 1
1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
—
That sounds like a mighty large number of witnesses, that if they were to be taken into court to testify to those things (all of them) we would have an *absolutely certain* decision that Jesus was indeed the Messiah of Israel, seen alive by all those people, after having been crucified, and also seen by those people actually being taken up into Heaven to be at the right hand of God, until He returns to earth again, to set up the Kingdom here...
I think I’ll take their testimony as more accurate than any one else’s “supposed” and “modern day” testimony... :-)
And of course there were other Jews of the exact same time who believed the exact opposite, but because you weren't raised in that belief you don't even consider it.
I don’t see their testimony refuted by those who were there with the Apostles, living in the same place at the same time. It’s clear that no one at that time could refute that testimony and that’s why the Christian Church grew dramatically at that time.
And there has been nothing to refute it in the intervening time. There have been doubters and naysayers who may refuse to believe it, but that’s their choice to refuse to believe it.
You're completely missing the most important issue here. Does the Torah, the direct unmediated Word of G-d, allow for such a religion as chr*stianity? If it doesn't it doesn't matter how many miracles J*sus performed or how many times he rose from the dead. That's something no chr*stian seems to be able to wrap his head around though; there's this root assumption that the Torah was never meant to be anything but a temporary "preparation" for something greater. In fact, this was never understood at any time. The Torah was never temporary, or "preparatory" for something "greater," G-d forbid. And the Prophets and Writings are lower, not higher, than the Torah. It is the peak as well as the foundation.
However, no one could present any evidence at that time, when it was directly available to them (i.e., *actually being there* and getting witnesses to testify to the contrary of those facts). And so, if no one could do it at that time when everyone was alive and able to testify — certainly no one in the 21st Century is going to be able to testify convincingly... LOL...
Again, your assuming your conclusion. You're assuming that the "new testament" and chr*stian tradition are true, and that's the very thing we're arguing about. Your continual assertions of your beliefs prove absolutely nothing but that you believe them.
You’ll notice that they have over 500 witnesses to Jesus being alive and taken up into Heaven...
Even if this is true this does not justify the chr*stian religion. The Torah was given in a National Revelation to the entire Nation of Israel in which some three million people (including women, children, and the "mixed multitude") heard the Voice of G-d--not a human being speaking in behalf of G-d and not a human being claiming to be G-d. This is the most authentic Revelation possible and even if it were to be overturned (G-d forbid) it would require a similar Revelation by the Invisible G-d to the entire Nation of Israel to do away with it. Compared to this all religions rest on purely subjective claims.
And btw, if you're going to go by what a large number of people see, you'll have to convert to Catholicism because of the large number of people who witnessed the sun dance in Portugal in 1917. Of course, you can always simply ignore that or ascribe it to Satan because it contradicts what you were raised to believe, but if you're going to reject the testimonies of large numbers of people then your acceptance of the testimonies of the "new testament" are obviously tainted by your assumptions and you aren't really ascribing authority to the witnesses at all.
[snip] I don't suppose I can make you understand that your quotes of the "new testament" hold no authority for me and therefore prove nothing.
That sounds like a mighty large number of witnesses, that if they were to be taken into court to testify to those things (all of them) we would have an *absolutely certain* decision that Jesus was indeed the Messiah of Israel, seen alive by all those people, after having been crucified, and also seen by those people actually being taken up into Heaven to be at the right hand of God, until He returns to earth again, to set up the Kingdom here...
I think I’ll take their testimony as more accurate than any one else’s “supposed” and “modern day” testimony... :-)
But as I have demonstrated, you don't really believe in chr*stianity because of the testimonies; you accept the testimonies because you're a chr*stian. You reason in a circle.
The "new testament" is no different from the "holy qur'an" or the "book of mormon." It's just been around longer.