Bigotry against Mormons apparently acceptable in Utah LDS (OPEN)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | March 20, 2009

[greyfoxx39]

Here is the response of a Utahn commenting on a Salt Lake Tribune online blog concerning HBO's attempt in its series "Big Love" to increase its revenues by publicly insulting the religious sensitivity of a minority religion: "Anything that gets the LDS "church's magical Mormon underwear in a twist is all right with me!!"

I write for a regional newspaper in Iowa. During the last election campaign, I suggested that Mitt Romney lost the Iowa caucus to Mike Huckabee primarily due to anti-Mormon bigotry. A reader argued that my opinion had no credence because I was a lay leader in the LDS Church.

The writer was either suggesting that I knew exactly what I was talking about and was therefore credible, or that I shouldn't be believed because I was a Mormon, which implies that the writer was a bigot.

-SNIP-

It is obvious to an outsider that Utah, or at least Salt Lake City, has within itself a deeply held culture of bigotry. A bigotry so ingrained in the cultural norm that the readers posting comments to the newspaper's blogs, apparently believing they are freethinking and ironic, are saying things online that would never be allowed into print if written about other groups.

[reaganaut]

I imagine so. Want to see heads spin? Call an observant Jew a “gentile”.

[Old Mountain man]

We have missions in all the countries where we are allowed. As you may recall, there are some countries where preaching and/or teaching the gospel is not allowed.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“You took that scripture out of the middle of a talk about how we do not need to have the glory of hurting ourselves by cutting off our foreskin.

And that is perfectly OK, because the Apostle Paul’s point was that he gloried in Christ’s death on the cross alone. I did not change his point.

“Peter was talking about how your causing yourself pain to be like Christ is of no value and about how we do not needing pain to receive the Atonement.

First, it was Paul, not Peter. Second, he was not writing about “causing yourself pain”. He was writing about the desire of those who wanted Christians to carry out the requirements of the law. Paul argues that those things do not mean anything and that he glories in the cross of Christ alone - not the outward things.

“And if you read verse 16, you will see that Paul points you to the outcome of the suffering, the peace of the Atonement.

Actually, Fred, the Apostle Paul does not mention the atonement here at all. He mentions peace and mercy.

“PS What do you think Paul was talking about when he said, “for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus” in verse 17?

Paul refers to the scars he bore as a result of persecution for the cause of Christ - in contrast to circumcision.

Personally, I do not care if someone chooses to wear a cross or not. It is a personal decision.

To choose to exalt the suffering in the garden instead of where the atonement took place, on the cross, however, is simply foolish. Payment that satisfied God for the sins of mankind happened through the shed blood AND death of Jesus Christ. The resurrection demonstrated He had conquered death.

best to you Fred,
ampu

[reaganaut]

I am aware of that. I am also aware of underground churches and missionary activity (not LDS) in countries where preaching/teaching the gospel is not allowed, in fact it can get you killed. As a matter of fact, I work extensively with with a ministry that helps Christians that are facing persecution in those countries: Voice of the Martyrs (persecution.org).

But the question I asked was WHY do the LDS MOSTLY do their missionary work in countries (like the US, Canada, South America, Europe) where the majority of people have already heard of Christ? And why do they seek out those that are at least nominally Christian for conversion to the LDS church?

[Old Mountain man]

Well, if you don’t like my answers, you should probably ask President Monson since he assigns missionaries. I do not have that calling.

[fproy2222]

Thanks for your opinion;

Thanks for showing me I used Peter instead of Paul at one point.

We will let others study it and see what they think of your idea vs mine.

<><><>

(Galatians 6:12-18.)

12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

[reaganaut]

Next time I see him, I shall.

[reaganaut]

AMPU’s interpretation is correct.

Paul is addressing the issue of the Judaizers (those that thought Christians were still under the law and therefore circumcision was required). It was common thought among the Judaizers that if they were circumcised, then they would face less opposition from the Jews who opposed Christianity. It came to a point that they were circumcising for selfish reasons. Paul is stating that because of Christ, circumcision is not necessary - because we become new creatures in Christ Jesus.

[Elsie]

The pain he suffered IS part of the atonement.

"By these stripes..."

[Elsie]

I do remember being taught by Lds Church leaders that we need to be respectful of others and of their beliefs.

And THAT is why we FAITHFULLY send over 60,000 missionaries around the world; telling Christians what is wrong with what they believe.

But do not worry; for we are quite respectful when we do it.

--MormonDude(Unless they are discovered to be some hatreful and bigoted ANTI!)

[reaganaut]

Isaiah 53:3-5 — some of my favorite verses.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (NIV)

[AmericanArchConservative]

Amplifying a little bit further along exactly those same lines, circumcision was a physical symbol of removal of unnecessary flesh (not going to get more descriptive here...), a symbol of ongoing sacrifice in their lives and a constant reminder of the role of G_d in every facet of their lives, as well as a longstanding tradition which identified the Jewish men uniquely from all other men in the world, and distinguished their G_d from all other gods - as well as the special nature of the relationship they had with Him as a people...

Therefore for Paul to say that circumcision was nothing and that uncircumcision was nothing - that ALL now depended upon the Cross of Christ - essentially purported to shatter the fundaments of their religion - which in turn was the fundament of their culture

All because of the Cross.

A.A.C.

[reaganaut]

Very well put.

[AmericanArchConservative]

Awwww shucks...Thanks. BTW, you have FReepmail.

A.A.C.

[Colofornian]

From the column: This year, I began reading the online version of The Salt Lake Tribune. My experience has been both eye-opening and troubling. First I noticed that The Tribune has a permanent "polygamy" tab on its Web site.

(Maybe that's because Mormonism introduced something into this country that's become permanent...some college professors just never get basic 2 + 2 ideas)

[Elsie]

Think back to the Articles of Faith. 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

But we will STILL send out more than 60,000 missionaries all over the world to tell people why what they 'believe' is WRONG and how the MORMON Organization has the ONLY path to GOD.

[Elsie]

 

Think back to the Articles of Faith.

Good idea; but there is no reason to THINK when we can READ!

---

 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

 

 

Ya just gotta LOVE them AND SO FORTH phrases!  That's some really precise language!

[Colofornian]

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

If they are going to be punished for their own sins, that means that Jesus Christ didn't...which means they lacked faith in Him to cover their sins...which means they are bound for outer darkness...because only people made holy by the blood of Christ can be in the presence of a holy God. This means that this Mormon creed isn't Bible-based.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Ordinances are laws. The Gospel isn't a set of laws. It's news. Good news. This means that this Mormon creed isn't Bible-based.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

LDS prophets also teach that if you re-commit the same sin you repented of, you never really repended to begin with. So like the Shoots & Ladders game, you slide back down to ground zero. The Mormon gospel creed is a spiritual shoots & ladder version.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

Where did the Mormon jesus get his authority? His father? Where did the Mormon father-once-was-a-man get his authority? His god? Where did that god get his authority? His grand-god? Who is the buck-stops-here god who passes out all authority? (The Mormon doesn't know him. Allow me to introduce you to Him. Read Isaiah, chapters 43 thru 46 -- some of the few chapters Joseph Smith didn't copy wholesale from Isaiah into the Book of Mormon).

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

Then where did the Primitive Church have high councilors, a Quorum of 12, Presidents, a first presidency of 3 men, no female prophetesses, general authorities, and 12-yo unmarried elders?

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

(Anybody ever hear of Mormons who speak in tongues?)

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

(Then why don't you use Joseph Smith's supposed "corrected" translation if that's the case?)

...we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

(Oh, that's why the Mormon church has had to edit it 3,913 times since it first came out...'cause, Joe, his angel, and the Mormon god couldn't get it right the first time)

We believe all that God has revealed...

Oh, like the New Testament temple of the body replaced the OT physical structure? Like salvation is of free grace -- a gift? (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23) Like we're all appointed to die once ensued by judgment? (Heb. 9:27) Like the OT AND NT clear enunciations that there's only one true God? (Not 3. And not millions)

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Well, Joseph already had a false prophecy about "redemption in Zion" coming Sept. 11, 1836. (Maybe it was just a bad prophesy day for him)

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

[Except when destroying printing presses in the Midwest, bringing mass murderers to justice (Mountain Meadows), submitting to the federal governments' laws on bigamy and polygamy, arresting fundamentalist current polygamists except for a few involved with minor wife-taking, etc.]

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“We will let others study it and see what they think of your idea vs mine.

Fred, I want to say this gently. Your idea isn’t found in the passage I quoted. To understand a passage, you can not read into it ideas that are not present. If mormonism teaching would stop doing this one thing, they would be on the road to the truth.

best to you,
ampu

[Old Mountain man]

And of course, your professional presbyterian bloviators would never do that. Right????????????????????????????