Bigotry against Mormons apparently acceptable in Utah LDS (OPEN)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | March 20, 2009

[greyfoxx39]

Here is the response of a Utahn commenting on a Salt Lake Tribune online blog concerning HBO's attempt in its series "Big Love" to increase its revenues by publicly insulting the religious sensitivity of a minority religion: "Anything that gets the LDS "church's magical Mormon underwear in a twist is all right with me!!"

I write for a regional newspaper in Iowa. During the last election campaign, I suggested that Mitt Romney lost the Iowa caucus to Mike Huckabee primarily due to anti-Mormon bigotry. A reader argued that my opinion had no credence because I was a lay leader in the LDS Church.

The writer was either suggesting that I knew exactly what I was talking about and was therefore credible, or that I shouldn't be believed because I was a Mormon, which implies that the writer was a bigot.

-SNIP-

It is obvious to an outsider that Utah, or at least Salt Lake City, has within itself a deeply held culture of bigotry. A bigotry so ingrained in the cultural norm that the readers posting comments to the newspaper's blogs, apparently believing they are freethinking and ironic, are saying things online that would never be allowed into print if written about other groups.

[reaganaut]

Correction: He knows who will believe and who will not. He knew who was to betray Him. His command was to all of them. But He knew who would and who would not heal, etc. Because in order to do that, you need FAITH in HIM.

[Stourme]

[Godzilla]
My, my, my Storm really you should quit that mind reading stuff without a registered peep stone.

You are as accurate with this analysis as you are with the rest of your response. Feel free to take this complaint to to the RM and you'll get "corrected" just like the other anti that tried that tactic.

Matthew 7:6
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Godzilla] Just another way of saying you have no proof.

I have experiences that I hold sacred. Heavenly Father grants those kinds of experiences at His good pleasure. Those are my pearls. And Heavenly Father would not look kindly upon me for violating the commandment in Matt 7:6.

I did see in your last response where you accused me of being scared of your quotes and what not. The arguments that the anti's put forth, in all honesty, lack any depth or sophistication. When the first couple scripture gets scrambled in the EWC, don't expect me to waste time trying to sort out the convoluted mess of the next 20.

FYI, there's not a single new concept espoused by any anti-Mormon on any web-site, book or forum in the entire world.

I know this because I used to be an evangelical and a very nasty anti-Mormon.

Now, if you wish to..umm..."discuss" something and actually want me to respond, then make it short. One or Two scriptures. And get to the point.

I am incapable of reading monstrously long tirades because of my current physical handicap. I can read long posts as long as they are divided up into short paragraphs. Anything longer than 4 lines in a paragraph is guaranteed to be ignored.

And btw, I left your quotation from Moroni in my last response for no other reason than if you want to quote from the Book of Mormon...well I think that's just peachy. Anti-climactic huh?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the ping to this sidebar discussion, dear sister in Christ!

On the first point, the power of God cannot be “used” by any man.

The conversion of Cornelius stands as an example. Peter’s testimony is so important it is repeated three times in Scripture (see below). Peter testifies that Cornelius and family were given the gift of the indwelling Spirit before he had laid his hands on them or baptized them or even finished telling them about Jesus Christ.

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? – Acts 10:44-47

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. – Acts 15:1

And again (emphasis mine:):

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

That God honors the laying on of hands in some cases does not mean that He will not do exactly His own will in every case. Man does not control God.

On the second point, it is not "arrogant" to believe God, to trust Him and know that we are saved:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. - John 10:28-29

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39

Seems like it always comes down to "Who do you believe?"

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

[reaganaut]

Thank you so much for your response. Your understanding of scripture is an inspiration. May God continue to bless you.

[Stourme]

First off, I'd like to thank you for putting your responses into a readable format.

[Stourme astutely opined]
According to you, Jesus just didn’t know He was being conned.

[reaganaut harshly responds]
There you go again, putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

No, I came to a conclusion based on the evidence you provided.

[reaganaut sternly bloviates]
And so, NO you did not understand me correctly.

Well, I'm certainly glad we've cleared that up. So you've changed your position then?

[reaganaut judgmentally thunders]
You are incorrect about this just as you are incorrect about everything related to true Christianity.

And I think I live at an incorrect address too on the incorrect street. I think my telephone number is wrong...

[reaganaut]
Of course Jesus knew his heart. He know all our hearts. He know who will believe and who will not.

Nor would Jesus set someone up for failure. So following this logic, Judas was chosen by Jesus because Judas was on par with the other 11 apostles.

Yes. Judas was a believer, but he gave into temptation and betrayed Jesus.

I am not the judge of Judas. I do not speculate on his eternal reward. But however, if your doctrine is correct, then you have to proclaim that Judas is in heaven this very moment.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ, and may God ever bless you and your loved ones!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“So, I almost thank you for your almost apology.

You are certainly almost welcome! ;-)

[Alamo-Girl]

Er, if I may – I’d like to add a comment about Judas.

It goes to the point that God is The Creator, not a creature.

Space and time are parts of the creation, not properties of the Creator. Since the 1960’s, cosmic microwave background radiation measurements agree that there was a beginning of real space and real time. It was the most theological statement ever to come out of modern science (Jastrow). Genesis 1 and John 1 both start “In the beginning…”

Or to put it another way, space/time does not preexist, it is created as the universe expands.

For creatures, whether physical or spiritual, time is linear and is typified by an arrow of time: past, present, future.

This arrow does not apply in theories of space/time where there exists even one additional expanded dimension of time. (e.g. Wesson, Vafa) In those theories, time is a plane or volumetric. What an observer ‘sees’ depends on his perspective, his coordinates “in” space/time.

The creature, whether spiritual or physical, cannot remove himself from "all that there is" to see it all at once.

God the Creator does. Again, space and time are part of the creation and not properties of the Creator. He alone sees “all that there is” all at once.

Mortal terms are negated when we meditate on God – time, even without limitation (eternity) is part of the creation, timelessness applies in our meditation of I AM.

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8) In Revelation 5, we see Him from the boson of the Father, the Spirit in His eyes – always the Lamb of God, always the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

Likewise, our names are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (Rev):

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Ephesians 1:4

And Judas was chosen for His purpose: Christ always knew what he would do.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? – John 6:70

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. – John 13:18

Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. – John 13:26-27

The vessels of wrath also serve His purpose:

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? – Romans 9:22-24

As does everything He created, i.e. even when the creature exists only because of His permissive will:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

Again,

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. – John 10:17-18

No creature can thwart the will of God:

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. – Matt 3:9

God’s Name is I AM.

[Godzilla]

Er, if I may – I’d like to add a comment about Judas.

Yes you may and as alway, you make an excellent point.

[Stourme]

I’d like to add a comment about Judas.

Your post looks interesting, unfortunately I can't read it.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Your post looks interesting, unfortunately I can’t read it.

I for one, would be willing to chip in to help pay for new eyewear, if that’s the issue. Anyone else?

[colorcountry]

I’m always surprised by computer users who don’t know how to use the zoom function.

[ejonesie22]

I will chip in but do we know exactly who to get the glasses for...

[Godzilla]

You are as accurate with this analysis as you are with the rest of your response. Feel free to take this complaint to to the RM and you'll get "corrected" just like the other anti that tried that tactic.

Oh really, wow, I am impressed.

I have experiences that I hold sacred. Heavenly Father grants those kinds of experiences at His good pleasure. Those are my pearls. And Heavenly Father would not look kindly upon me for violating the commandment in Matt 7:6.

Ok, so it ok to brag about them in the interium? By your simple bragging you are violating your own imposed commandment.

I did see in your last response where you accused me of being scared of your quotes and what not. The arguments that the anti's put forth, in all honesty, lack any depth or sophistication. When the first couple scripture gets scrambled in the EWC, don't expect me to waste time trying to sort out the convoluted mess of the next 20.

Pretty lame stormy - I only cited 3 passages associates with your so called EWC and were not directly linked to the others. Just an obfuscation to avoid Jesus' teachings stormy, or do you do smorgasbord Jesus teachings?

FYI, there's not a single new concept espoused by any anti-Mormon on any web-site, book or forum in the entire world.

Wow, such universal proclaim - and I suppose you have been to every website, read every book and every forum (crickets)But then the refutation of your doctrine came from the Bible and Jesus' lips - so I guess it is safe to say that Christians using Jesus' words to refute mormonism are pretty universal.

Now, if you wish to..umm..."discuss" something and actually want me to respond, then make it short. One or Two scriptures. And get to the point.

You know, that's what I have done for the past several posts.

I am incapable of reading monstrously long tirades because of my current physical handicap. I can read long posts as long as they are divided up into short paragraphs. Anything longer than 4 lines in a paragraph is guaranteed to be ignored.

Well, considering the volume of responses you've made in this thread I find it a little difficult to believe, especially when reviewing my last an see that most of my paragraphs are only a couple of sentences - which you ignored anyway. So why should I believe you will not ignore them further - other than to duck them.

And btw, I left your quotation from Moroni in my last response for no other reason than if you want to quote from the Book of Mormon...well I think that's just peachy. Anti-climactic huh?

Yep, and you cannot tell us, with all your priesthood experience and power that you will be allowed into heaven. Remember, Moroni's statement is conditional upon your life being completely sinless and perfect. Otherwise the mormon Jesus cannot save you in your sins.

[Godzilla]

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[Colofornian]

Of course we can't forget this one...Matthew 10:1 AND when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Wow, I guess God does give His power to man. [Stourme]

[Oh, of course, that's why we've seen LDS apostles in our generation from McConkie to Packer & company working “signs & wonders” left & right: Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:12)]

But, of course, Stourme, you're a principle guy – not an event guy (you're post to Reaganaut in #147). So, can we expect you to also tell us that LDS apostles' “ability” to perform signs & wonders is also just a “principle” -- but that we shouldn't expect actual “events” to arise from such principles?

You wanted a list of blood-atonements events earlier in the thread. I'd like a list of LDS apostles “signs & wonders” events. (Oh, you don't have them?)

What's funny is you stressed to Godzilla in post #237 that following His commandments are vital to being saved. So, have ALL LDS followed the commandment in 2 Cor. 12:12 to display the true sign of an apostle? Have they wrought signs & wonders? (A list please)

[ejonesie22]

I will chip in but do we know exactly who to get the glasses for...

[Colofornian]

Where then you proceeded to list examples like "Blood Atonement". Blood Atonement is a principle....not an event.

Oh, we get it, Stourme. LDS "prophets" and "apostles" issues these "revelatory" "principles." But then LDS grassroots don't...
...embrace them...
...embody them...
...obey them.

Supposedly, according to you as Mr. Authority--'cause you suddenly certainly speak like a priestholder with self-authority--these concepts like "blood atonement" just bounced around the airy heads of people...bounding in one ear & vacating out the other...never finding a root...or an ounce of obedience.

But I thought you told Godzilla in post #237 that following His commandments are vital to being saved. Are you now announcing to us all that 100% of the saints under Brigham Young during Young's "blood atonement" teaching era were 100% disobedient to the "prophet" of God? Really? Not one single "saint" "event-ualized" blood atonement?

Well, thanks for this admission and confession about the history of the "saints." (Why don't LDS then condemn this disobedient past generations of Mormons again?)

[ejonesie22]

Note to self. Don’t hit back button after returning from lunch...