Bigotry against Mormons apparently acceptable in Utah LDS (OPEN)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | March 20, 2009

[greyfoxx39]

Here is the response of a Utahn commenting on a Salt Lake Tribune online blog concerning HBO's attempt in its series "Big Love" to increase its revenues by publicly insulting the religious sensitivity of a minority religion: "Anything that gets the LDS "church's magical Mormon underwear in a twist is all right with me!!"

I write for a regional newspaper in Iowa. During the last election campaign, I suggested that Mitt Romney lost the Iowa caucus to Mike Huckabee primarily due to anti-Mormon bigotry. A reader argued that my opinion had no credence because I was a lay leader in the LDS Church.

The writer was either suggesting that I knew exactly what I was talking about and was therefore credible, or that I shouldn't be believed because I was a Mormon, which implies that the writer was a bigot.

-SNIP-

It is obvious to an outsider that Utah, or at least Salt Lake City, has within itself a deeply held culture of bigotry. A bigotry so ingrained in the cultural norm that the readers posting comments to the newspaper's blogs, apparently believing they are freethinking and ironic, are saying things online that would never be allowed into print if written about other groups.

[greyfoxx39]

[Godzilla]

But the Resurrection IS NOT THE ATONEMENT
. ++++++++=
And yet they are connected through Jesus at the cross. They go hand and hand, one is part of the other.

You are mixing apples and oranges here Fred. While associated in time and space, reganaut is correct in the statement that they are not one in the same. The only references in the Bible dealing with Christ and the atonement are in reference to the cross, not the Garden of Gethsemane.

1. Reconciliation is through the cross:
"And might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity," (Eph. 2:16).
"And through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven," (Col. 1:20).
2. Our debt nailed to the cross
"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross," (Col. 2:14).
3. He bore our sins on the cross
"And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24).
4. Reconciled through Christ's death -- which occurred on the cross. "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life," (Rom. 5:10).
"Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach," (Col. 1:22).

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is significant because of its necessity. There are several reasons why the resurrection was necessary, and we shall consider some of them below.
(1) The resurrection of Christ was necessary to prove that Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be. Our Lord had clearly claimed to be the son of God, which was the reason why the religious leaders conspired to kill Him (cf. John 19:7). The resurrection was God’s proof that the Lord Jesus was Who He claimed to be: the Son of God:

Who was declared with power to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 1:4).

(2) The resurrection of Christ was necessary to prove that Jesus Christ had accomplished what He had promised. The death of our Lord alone would not have sufficed, since it is by our identification with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection that we are saved.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (Rom. 5:9-10).

In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, that great resurrection chapter of the New Testament, Paul argues that apart from Christ’s resurrection, we would have no hope:

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. . . . For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:13-14; 16-17).

In his message at Pentecost, Peter taught that the resurrection of Christ by the Father (through the Holy Spirit) was God’s vindication of His Son, His message, and His work:

“This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its powers. . . .

This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. . . . Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:23-24, 32-33, 36).

(3) The resurrection was a necessary in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. In Acts chapter 2 Peter argued that the resurrection was biblically necessary, citing David’s words in Psalm 16:10:

“Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay” (Acts 2:27; cf. 13:33).

Peter argued from Psalm 16 that David could not have referred to himself, but rather to his Son, Messiah, whom God would raise from the dead. The Old Testament Scriptures were understood by the apostles to foretell the resurrection of Christ. The resurrection of Christ was thus a biblical necessity.

(4) The resurrection of Christ was also a logical necessity. In his message in the second chapter of Acts, Peter also contended that the resurrection of Christ, the Messiah, was a logical as well as a biblical necessity.

“And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power” (Acts 2:24).

Peter argued here that it is impossible for God to remain in the grave and to decay, as men do. By virtue of being God, Christ could not have been left in that tomb, dead.

(5) The resurrection of Christ is vital because it is a necessary element of a saving faith. In both the Old and the New Testaments, a saving faith was a faith in a God’s who could and would raise men from the dead. A careful study of the 11th chapter of Hebrews will indicate that the faith of Old Testament saints was a resurrection faith.2

Allow me to use one Old Testament figure to demonstrate the resurrection dimension of faith, the faith of Abraham. The initial absence of this kind of faith is apparent from Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his wife’s purity in order to save his own skin. As Abram and Sarai approached Egypt, he said to her,

“See now, I know that you are a beautiful woman; and it will come about that when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, ‘This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. Please say that you are my sister so that it may go well with me because of you, and that I might live on account of you” (Gen. 12:11-13).

This was far from a resurrection faith on Abraham’s part. He was so fearful of dying that he was willing to sacrifice his wife’s purity to save his own skin.

As God continued to work in Abraham’s life, a resurrection faith resulted. When God promised Abram and Sarai a son in their old age, Abraham believed God because he had come to possess a saving, resurrection faith. Paul writes about Abraham’s faith in his epistle to the Romans:

And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Romans 4:19-20).3

Abraham’s resurrection was put to its most crucial test, once again pertaining to his son. The writer to the Hebrews tells us,

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” He considered that God is able to raise men even from the dead; from which he also received him back as a type (Hebrews 11:17-19).

Thus we can see that the faith of the Old Testament saints was a resurrection faith. So, too, the faith of the New Testament believer must be a resurrection faith. Jesus said,

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)

The apostle Paul wrote:
. . . if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved (Rom. 10:9).

Personal faith in the resurrection of Christ is therefore necessary because it is a vital element in a faith that leads to salvation.

[colorcountry]

Oh dear! Fred....

[Religion Moderator]

What part of "do not make it personal" do you not understand?

Making an entire thread about another Freeper is "making it personal."

Saying another Freeper lied is attributing motives to him and reading his mind.

By any measure, it is inciting a flame war as is your post to me which I shall pull.

[Religion Moderator]

I am not the arbiter of truth, fact, logic, etc.

If I bent to your wish to establish the fact of a matter and disallow all views to the contrary, I would also have to bend to your opponent's wish to establish the fact of a matter and disallow all views to the contrary. That is not tolerable.

Posters must argue what is true and false on open threads, not by attacking the other posters personally and certainly not by starting a new thread as a personal attack.

You are obviously too thin-skinned for the "open" threads on this Religion Forum. Ignore them. Post instead to the "prayer" "devotional" "caucus" and "ecumenical" threads.

Leave this thread.

[reaganaut]

Actually Resty, I DID study when I was in the LDS Church, that is how I found out it was a fraud. And this was before the internet.

I research for a living, remember?

Unfortunately, there are many LDS who will accept whatever the “party line” is at any given time. For example, “the JOD are not scripture.” Well, they were considered scripture when they were sent to England, they were considered scripture by those who gave the discourses, and they were considered scripture by the LDS for a very long time. But now that they expose the heresy of the Mormon Church, they are no longer “scripture”. The LDS make excuses for their history often, it would give them much more credibility to just admit the problems of their past.

How can you trust anything your prophet says if you do not know when he is speaking as a prophet or as a man?

You claim ‘discernment of the Holy Spirit’, so did the Medieval Mystics, many of whom were either canonized (Catherine of Genoa) or burned for heresy (Marjorie Porte). I believe in the Holy Spirit and I believe that he helps me discern truth from error.

However, just because a person THINKS it is the Holy Spirit, does not mean it is. The views MUST agree with the BIBLE, and LDS doctrine CONSISTENTLY fails that test.

[fproy2222]

I am not the arbiter of truth, fact, logic, etc.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would not call myself thin skined.

Since I have used the advice of Religion Moderators to correct people who lie repeated and your posters continue to lie the same lies, how do you suggest that your posters be prevented from repeating the same lies over and over again on your forum?

[Religion Moderator]

They shall not be prevented, fproy2222.

Learn a lesson from the Catholics who post on the Religion Forum.

No matter how many times they protest that they do not worship Mary there will always be posters who are equally certain that they do. And so they remain prepared to rebut the claim each time they see it.

[greyfoxx39]

I for one, would like to know what the “lies” are that are in that accusation, but since Fred is supposed to leave the thread, I will leave that to another time.

[Religion Moderator]

This is a case of one poster accusing another poster of intending to deceive by selective use of ellipses rather than quoting the source fully.

It is perfectly fine on an open thread to post both the entire passage and the excerpted one and declare the latter as false or a misrepresentation.

It is absolutely not tolerable to attribute a motive to the Freeper who excerpted it.

[Elsie]

 

Well, they were considered scripture when they were sent to England, they were considered scripture by those who gave the discourses, and they were considered scripture by the LDS for a very long time.

 

I defer to the Words of Wisdom from one of the LDS Organizaions late Prophets:

 

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

 

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

[Elsie]

This is a case of one poster accusing another poster of intending to deceive by selective use of ellipses rather than quoting the source fully.

Or a MixMaster!

[Godzilla]

This is a case of one poster accusing another poster of intending to deceive by selective use of ellipses rather than quoting the source fully.

IMHO, the solution is very simple, the offended individual should then post the fuller context and show the citation to have been selective and out of context. This will not prove the intent to decieve, but it will contribute to the discussion more constructively. I've had to do similiar many times over. If they are unable to do that, then your wisdom in their participating in a less disturbing area should be followed.

[ejonesie22]

I hate it when I travel. I miss all the good parties...

[Godzilla]

I hate it when I travel. I miss all the good parties...

Show up for some more staff meetings then. . . .

[ejonesie22]

Hey using facts to expose the “truth” is hard work. We all deserve a break...

And maybe getting one. Looks like our boy is losing it...