The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]

What is it? Who will it affect? When is it most likely to take place?
by Dr. David R. Reagan
http://www.lamblion.com/about_staff_reagan.php

The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The term "Rapture" comes from a Latin word, "rapio," that means "to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out." It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, "harpazo."

So, "Rapture" is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, "caught up," is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.

The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress."

The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, "I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated "to meet the Lord in the air."

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet" (verses 51-52).

Paul's reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).

To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be "caught up" to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to "comfort one another with these words."

And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.

All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!

The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.

Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord's Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus' speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke's record of the same speech.

Note, for example, Matthew's references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke's account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance "to escape all these things" when the end time signs "begin to take place" (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.

It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew's account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).

The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.

There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.

This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of "the last trumpet." This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.

Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a "flash forward" to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.

Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when "the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord."

The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at the beginning of the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.

The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the bowl judgments in the last quarter of the Tribulation (Revelation 16) represent the wrath of God.

But the argument for this view disintegrates when you consider two facts. First, it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the seal judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. Second, the seven angels who blow the trumpets that initiate each of the trumpet judgments are given their trumpets at the throne of God (Revelation 8:2).

All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the bowl judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.

I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.

Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told "to be ready" (Matthew 24:44), "to be on the alert" (Matthew 24:42), "to be dressed in readiness" (Luke 12:35), and to "keep your lamps alight" (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord's appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord's appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.

For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord's appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.

This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Likewise, Peter urges us to "fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to "fix our hope on Him" at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).

Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.

The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God's wrath. Romans 5:9 says that "we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus]." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting "for His Son from heaven... who will deliver us from the wrath to come." The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).

But God's promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would "escape" the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to "deliver" us from God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation.

Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah's time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.

Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.

The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely "knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:4-9).

Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus' time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father's house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father's house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.

Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father's heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with "the marriage supper of the Lamb" described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.

The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the "bride of Christ" in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the "marriage supper of the Lamb." At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14).

The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book's description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of "saints" (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.

An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul's name stating that they had missed the "gathering to the Lord" and were, in fact, living in "the day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force "is taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7).

There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7).

Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7).

In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul's restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because "men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power." When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.

The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as "escapism." I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to "comfort one another" with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world's worst period of war instead of at the beginning?

Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord's return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.

If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on "the full armor of God" (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18).

If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God's salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).

Well, one of the nice things about talking about the Bible and the prophetic items listed in it — is — that it’s *timeless* — in that it doesn’t change, it never gets old, and as long as we haven’t been taken off this earth yet — we can still talk about it a month from now, a year from now, or twenty years from now — and it’s always the same Word of God that we’re talking about.

The Word of God is timeless, and He knows the end from the beginning.

So, that means we can also “revisit” threads on the Rapture and the Word of God and be just as “timeless” in talking about it.

On that note, I bring another comment in on this RAPTURE CAUCUS thread, and hope that we can generate some comments on the never-changing Word of God and what’s going on with Israel these days and how it may pertain to the Rapture.

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And by the way, if anyone knows of someone else to invite here, please do so, or if someone reading would like to be alerted once-in-a-while to some things on the RAPTURE CAUCUS thread (and other future threads of the same), then please let me know so I can put you on the list to alert you. We don’t want to “lose” our thread in the background chatter of all that goes on, here on Free Republic.

This is Psalm 83, which many prophecy teachers of the Bible (of the Pre-millennial, Pre-Tribulational, Dispensational position) are saying is the next item on the prophecy calendar for Israel.

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Psalm 83

1 A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. Do not keep silent, O God! Do not hold Your peace, And do not be still, O God!

2 For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; And those who hate You have lifted up their head.

3 They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, And consulted together against Your sheltered ones.

4 They have said, “Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.”

5 For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You:

6 The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites;

7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;

8 Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot. Selah

9 Deal with them as with Midian, As with Sisera, As with Jabin at the Brook Kishon,

10 Who perished at En Dor, Who became as refuse on the earth.

11 Make their nobles like Oreb and like Zeeb, Yes, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,

12 Who said, “Let us take for ourselves The pastures of God for a possession.”

13 O my God, make them like the whirling dust, Like the chaff before the wind!

14 As the fire burns the woods, And as the flame sets the mountains on fire,

15 So pursue them with Your tempest, And frighten them with Your storm.

16 Fill their faces with shame, That they may seek Your name, O Lord.

17 Let them be confounded and dismayed forever; Yes, let them be put to shame and perish,

18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth.

Bill Salus is the author of Isralestine, which is a book about this subject of Israel and Psalm 83.

http://www.isralestine.org/
http://www.isralestine.net/

Some articles written on the RaptureReady website
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus2.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus3.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus4.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus5.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus6.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus7.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus8.html
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/salus9.html

The book on Amazon -
Isralestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East
http://www.amazon.com/dp/098149577X

PROPHECY UPDATE RADIO Hosted by Bill Salus
http://prophecyupdateradio.blogspot.com/

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These things pertaining to Israel weren’t things in the hands of our former President Bush, and they’re not in the hands of Obama, either. They’re in the hands of God, and He’s told us about them, in inerrant and infallible Word, the Bible.

As we see in Psalm 121, God says...

— Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep. —

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1 A Song of Ascents. I will lift up my eyes to the hills— From whence comes my help?

2 My help comes from the Lord, Who made heaven and earth.

3 He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber.

4 Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord is your keeper; The Lord is your shade at your right hand.

6 The sun shall not strike you by day, Nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul.

8 The Lord shall preserve your going out and your coming in From this time forth, and even forevermore.

And then, we should also take note of Psalm 2...

1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,

3 ”Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision.

5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure:

6 ”Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion.”

7 ”I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ “

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

There are many who say they wish they were here for the First Coming of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel — but *you are here* for the Second Coming of Jesus the Messiaah of Israel, of which many prophecies in the Bible are yet unfulfilled, and are due to be fulfilled at any moment, now.

You said — I just saw him on a Missler DVD. He presents an interesting Islamic angle to end time events. Internet research on him, and his background and motives gives mixed results. My assumption is that Missler trusts him from what I saw on the DVD.

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Yes, he’s been invited to many Prophecy conferences and it’s only recently that he’s “been allowed” (so to speak...) in some of these same prophecy conferences about some of these prophetic events that he does speak about.

And although he does deviate from some of the “so-called” standard pre-mil, pre-trib, dispensational prophetic teachers, they do (at the same time) accept Walid Shoebat, as a brother in Christ and he does speak at some of these same prophecy conferences.

It remains to be seen and analyzed some more as to whether this is true or not. I’ve read up on what he says, and there is another book out by him (or maybe not yet and soon; don’t know of the timing) which (Shoebat says) gives the *detailed information* about what he’s presenting. It is compelling, to say the least, but you have to weigh those things carefully, because it’s so easy to be carried off one way or the other way, just like a dandelion weed being blown around in the wind... LOL...

You will find Walid Shoebat being interviewed on Jan Markell’s radio program Olive Tree Ministries, too (look back over the last four years for his name).

http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/

I’m trying to still “get a handle” on the various prophecy teachers and categorize their individual stances on this. I do hope to post that sometime in the distant future (not soon now... LOL...) and put each of them into the category that they teach...

But, the ones that are true and accurate to the Word of God and that Israel does have significance in God’s prophetic plan and that also believe in the Rapture, pretty much all come down on the side of pre-mil, pre-trib and dispensational... (I would say that this is a beginning categorization for pretty much all of them, and then they split up a bit from there, into other areas of prophecy).

This is another thread (an “open” thread) that I posted regarding a recent interview program from Jan Markell.

You’ll find that certain ministries and pastors and teachers will be supportive of the Rapture and these end-times events. These same ones also support the end-times events pertaining to Israel, instead of denying that there is any significance at all to Israel — as this *ties in directly* to the Rapture, too — because of this being the time that the “church” is removed from the earth and then it’s the “time” for God’s plan for Israel to get into gear. Things are “building up” and are in what is called “stage setting” right now (i.e., things being “put into place” to get ready for these events to happen as the prophecies say, and for the Rapture to happen very soon).

This is the thread that was posted...

Jan Markell Interviews - April 18, 2009 Program
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2233937/posts

This is how it started off, below...

Here is the latest program from Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries - from Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota, on AM980 KKMS. The weekly broadcast specilizes in interviewing various guest, usually two per program (an hour each).

The following are the two guests on for this most recent program.

Dr. Ron Rhodes returns to talk Bible prophecy with Jan. Why is the secular world more interested in eschatology than the church? Those who follow the “end-times” are now called “right-wing extremists” by Homeland Security. Our world is upside down, inside out, and what is the Christian—particularly those watching the “signs of the times”—to do? The scoffing has intensified but due to the turmoil of our times, more are listening, asking questions, and are going to ask you for answers. Dr. Rhodes is one of our “Understanding the Times 2009” speakers. Find Dr. Rhodes’ book, “Northern Storm Rising”, here.

Bill Salus is the author of the popular book “Israelestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East.” Jan and Bill talk about general “signs of the times,” the Church of Laodicea, the passage of Psalm 83 (found in a Bible opened to that page in a Irish filthy bog in 2006,) and other important issues of the day. Salus’ book will be on our Web site within a week and can be then found here. Salus believes the Psalm 83 war may be the next major war in the Mideast.

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Here is some information from the Olive Tree Ministries about itself.

Jan Markell, Founder and President of Olive Tree Ministries, was saved under Jewish evangelist Hyman Appleman when she was a child. In Jan’s early ministry years she was a part of the Messianic movement, worked for pro-Israel agencies, and for Jewish evangelism ministries.

In 1982, Jan incorporated Olive Tree Ministries and the goals of the ministry can be read at “Our Purpose.” Jan has written eight major books with prominent Christian publishing houses. She has produced a dozen DVDs, some featured on Sky Angel. At one time she traveled full time across America as a speaker. Visit our store to see some of the products by Jan that are available for purchase. In the year 2000, Jan launched a radio branch of the ministry starting first on AM980 KKMS, Minneapolis/St. Paul. In 2004, the program was syndicated nationally and is heard internationally on the Internet. “Understanding the Times” radio has been received well as a source of news and information hard to find. “Understanding the Times” is interview and commentary-driven. Learn more at the “Radio Show” category. We have had e-mail response from across America and from two-dozen foreign countries listening to the program.

The ministry has five employees including Jan’s personal assistant Heidi Swander. Other employees assist in radio production and technical areas. Olive Tree Ministries is a registered 501c3 organization.

Jan Markell
Olive Tree Ministries
http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/
[ ... several years of radio programming at this link ... ]

The following is the latesst radio interview of the two guests — Dr., Ron Rhodes and Bill Salus.

April 18, 2009 - Hour 1
http://mp3.olivetreeviews.org/OTM2009_04_18A.mp3

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April 18, 2009 - Hour 2
http://mp3.olivetreeviews.org/OTM2009_04_18B.mp3

These two shows are really great for information concerning these “End Times” that we are in, and how fast things are developing in today’s world.

Well, okay, let me say it another way then... :-)

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In regards to the Doctrine of Imminence, it’s something that only pertains to the Rapture. It’s not a “stand-alone” doctrine, that exists apart from the Rapture. It’s only spoken about, in terms of the Rapture, itself.

Now, what we’re talking about here — is — in terms of the Rapture — and also as it pertains to being pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath. That’s a “given” for this Caucus thread.

When I pointed out that the Apostle Paul was expecting the coming of the Lord to “take up” the believers, he was expecting it in his day. But, we are expecting it in our day. How can that be? The Bible is not wrong.

You see, we are not here on this Caucus, looking for the Rapture — and at the same time, believing that the Rapture already happened or what Paul was expecting in his day — already happened. In other words, we’re looking for these prophecies of the Bible to *still be fulfilled* today — and we’re not here in this Caucus thread saying that “all the prophecies have already been fulfilled” (pertaining to these things we’re examining here).... LOL... if we said that, we wouldn’t have a Rapture Caucus, would we?

What I’m pointing out is that the Doctrine of Imminence is something that applies specifically to the Rapture, in such a way that it makes what Paul believed in his time, in that he was looking forward to these prophecies happening soon (for him) and that we are looking forward in our time (in that these prophecies will happen soon) — because — there are not any prophetic events, listed in the Bible, that *have to happen first* before the Rapture happens.

If we are still “looking for the Rapture” it’s because we do not believe that these events about the soon coming of the Lord and about Israel have happened yet (which will happen after the Rapture). That’s how we can say the same thing as the Apostle Paul says and still be expecting the same prophetic events to happen — and *still be future events* — and *not* say “these prophecies have already happened in the past”.

I’m saying that this is the *essence* of this “Caucus” the “foundation” of the belief of this Caucus, in that these prophetic events *are still future* as they pertain to Israel and the coming of the Lord and that the Doctrine of Imminence is the keystone and foundation for them being so, and explaining that the Apostle Paul believed the same thing we believe now (i.e., the Doctrine of Imminence), or else one will start concluding that these prophecies that we say happen *after* the Rapture have already happened in the past (and we’re definitely not saying that here..., in regards to the Rapture and in regards to the events about Israel happening *after* the Rapture... :-) ... ).

That’s why the Apostle Paul was telling those “Thessalonians” to not worry, because someone had told them that these things had *already happened* and that they had “missed it” — and they were “upset” about that. Paul was calming them down and saying “It has not happened yet (and likewise — here — on this Rapture Caucus, we’re saying “It has not happened yet!” ...).

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1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

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The day of the Lord had not happened in Paul’s time, at the time he wrote this. And we’re saying here that the day of the Lord has not happened in our time either. The Apostle Paul did not think, as he wrote this, that there were some prophecies that had to happen *first* before the day of the Lord could happen. No..., he thought it could happen in his time and he was teaching others to expect it at any time.

And here we are, today, also in the “same state of awareness” as they were. The only way we can still be in that same state of awareness as they were — is if — these things pertaining to the day of the Lord *have not happened yet*.... LOL... otherwise, we’ve all be “passed by” and we can forget about the Rapture Caucus... :-)

I hope you see what I mean, in that it’s the “very essence” of the Rapture and the Rapture Caucus itself.

Now, the day of the Lord contains *many things* — it’s not *just* the Rapture, alone. And it’s also a “period of time” — but — it “starts” with the Rapture, because the “Rapture” is a “non-sign event, of which we cannot know when it is. Once the day of the Lord *does start* though, we’ve “got the timing” because we know it’s seven year, and there’s a mid-point, and there’s an end-point and we can “time” those other events. You just can’t “time” the beginning of the day of the Lord (with the Rapture happening) — and thus, that’s why “you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a theif in the night.”

And that’s why we know that these things talked about in the day of the Lord — have *not happened yet* — or else, why are we looking for a Rapture. We’ll be just as upset as those Thessalonians were, when they thought it “had passed them by” — but Paul reassured them that it had not yet. We’re still in the same boat — looking *forward* (not backward) to those events which the “day of the Lord” consists of — of which the “Rapture” is the beginning mark of it (but is “unknown” as to its timing).

Well, that’s a long way around it all, but there it is... LOL..

You said — I guess my question is: Is the doctrine of imminence, Which I believe is scriptural, only pretrib? Do prewrath and midtrib believe in it? Don’t all Christians believe Jesus could return any minute? Isn’t this the blessed hope? As I said I believed this my whole life. Maybe now, I think, not by what I learned, but by God’s grace.

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One of the things that people should realize about “doctrines” is that doctrines are “composite statements” that say in “abbreviated form” — what the Bible itself says — in an extended format, using several different verses, with those verses being in different places in the Bible, and even from different human authors, even though they are from the *One author*, God Himself.

What you’re doing with a “doctrine” is assembling different verses, into that “one statement” that summarizes it easily for others to grasp it in a “logical” and coordinated fashion. The Bible itself is the *sole authority* of course, but “doctrinal statements” are something that allow us to summarize and categorize those functional and different parts of the Bible.

These doctrines *also* come out of “certain ways and methodologies” of understanding how it is that the Bible says what it says.

I think it’s safe to say that those who truly believe that the Bible is God’s perfect and inerrant and infallible word to us — believe that the Bible says “literally” what it means (also taking into account the “structures” of language, too).

In other words, we’re *not* saying that the Bible is — a “fable” put together by God in order to “give us a story” and that it’s not something that “really happened” and/or it “won’t really happen” either. We’re not discussing the “Rapture” from the standpoint that the Bible is like “Aesops Fables” — which are meant to teach us some “values” but that the story itself isn’t true — and thus, it’s only meant to teach us a something that we should learn. That is *not* how we view the Bible.

I have to say this, because a “doctrine” will be developed by someone from these different “outlooks” and “views” on how you should understand the Bible. And *if* we think that the Bible teaches that the Rapture is *real* and something that will happen in “real life” and “in the future” too — then we are taking this meaning from a particular way of “understanding the Bible” (which is commonly referred to as the “literal method” — and *not* as “allegory”).

So, you need to be “consistent” in your “interpretation” of the Bible and use that same “methodology” across the board. In other words, you don’t say that this part is “real” and this other part is only “allegory” (unless the Bible itself tells you that it’s a “symbol” — which in some places it does tell you that...).

I hate to go the “long way around this” — but since I can’t come out and say *exactly*, up front, some things, and be in this “caucus” — I have to say it in a round-about way. And this is it... LOL...

You basically cannot be talking about the Rapture as a real event, happening in the future, according to real-life prophetic events and *not* be viewing the Bible as describing events *literally*. It goes hand-in-hand with each other. You have to be consistent. I say that, because there are going to be “interpretations” — given to you from the Bible — in which someone is given you an “allegorical interpretation” to argue against some part or function of the Rapture. If that is what is happening, then you are “mixing and matching” the “literal view” with the “allegorical view” of Scripture — and you basically can’t have a “Rapture” in the first place, from that type of interpretation. All you get is “total confusion” (which we see a whole lot of, unfortunately, and this is why...).

And if you take entire “theologies” which develop from “allegorical views” of Scripture and try to *apply those theologies* to the RAPTURE — you’re *really going to be confused* — TOTALLY SO. And that’s what happens a lot in these types of discussions, on open threads — total anarchy and mass confusion... LOL.. (unless you know exactly where people are “coming from” in their theologies).

So, I’m saying that you cannot have an understanding of and a discussion of the Rapture and not be dealing with the literal and inerrant and infallible views of Scripture — and make any sense of the Rapture and/or have any “consistency” of interpretation in the Bible. You’ve got to get your “foundational understanding” of the Bible itself down pat, and then you can have a consistent and accurate discussion of the Rapture.

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Going back up to what you were saying or asking — “Do prewrath and midtrib believe in it?”

The question is — “Should they believe in it?” Does the Bible teach it. Is this really a doctrine, assembled from various parts of Scripture, which we can “abbreviate” and “summarize” into this doctrine?

And this question is going to be answered from the literal, inerrant, infallible interpretations of Scripture, as that’s where the “real-life event” of the Rapture comes from, too.

That is where one must start with that. And I said all that above about the “views” that one has about Scripture (in terms of literal or allegorical or “spiritualizing” it) — because you will have *different conclusions* depending on where you come down on these things.

And I’m saying you — cannot even *have the Rapture* — in the first place, as a “real-life event” (if you’re saying that there is such a thing, as the Rapture...) — unless — you’re approaching this from a “literal interpretation” of the Scriptures...

That just had to be a “foundational viewpoint” of the matter before getting into it a lot further...

And it’s from that same foundational viewpoint of the interpretation of Scripture (which gives the *basis* for the Rapture in the first place) — that you’re going to get the answer to your question about the Doctrine of Imminence, from examining various Scriptures that pertain to it.

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All that for the “basis” and to “get started”... LOL...

I feel I should repeat what has already been posted up above, too, as *part* of this Caucus, post #1...

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
[this part gives guidelines for interpretating the Word of God]

You said — This was were I had the error. I thought all Christians expected Jesus to return at any moment.

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It’s actually very confusing to people, when they hear “all these things” because one thing tends to contradict another and over here it doesn’t seem to fit with something “over there”... LOL...

And that’s why I figure that people should always know “first” — where someone is “coming from” in terms of their theology, so these things will make sense to you.

I know on this particular thread (being a “caucus”) — that we (unfortunately) cannot even “discuss” the “categories” that others fit into, as to explaining what those others mean and say, even in trying to help people understand — but we can say what “goes with the Rapture” or else you don’t even have a “Rapture” in the first place, at all... LOL...

Let me *narrow this down* a bit more (about what you said above)...

Very specifically the “Doctrine of Imminence” is only given from those who teach the Rapture from the standpoint of the literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God, who teach pre-mil, dispensational theology, and believe that Israel is *still* prophetically significant with God, in still-to-come future events that Israel will fulfill. This is where all the Rapture teachers/preachers come from. And if one doesn’t have these other understandings of Scripture, and teachings on Israel — then sooner or later, they are going to abandon the Rapture belief. It’s the above “basis” from which the Rapture is preached and supported. If you don’t have that basis, you’re not going to be preaching and/or supporting the Rapture.

BUT..., you will see some people (who may not see the Rapture as a separate event from the Second coming, like pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath do see as separate...) who will say that “you cannot know the time that Jesus will come” (being that they’re talking about the Second Coming). *That* — by itself — is not the Doctrine of Imminence... For point of clarification, one should not confuse that statement with the Doctrine of Imminence.

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Ya know..., I know that some here are going to say (maybe... LOL..) this is way too nit-picky on all these “qualifications” and so on. Well, I will say that this is where *all the confusion* comes from (on this subject and on prophecy as it applies to the Rapture) by not getting down to the nitty-gritty and exact understanding and also as to *how we know what we know* about the subject (i.e., the methodologies of interpreting the Bible... one should know that, for sure...).

I hope I haven’t left too many people “out there ... cold” ...

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